More on the crimes of Catholic priests!

[Roses]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50165998
And so it goes on. I just don't know how anyone can be a devout Catholic these days, as their church has preferred to cover up the crimes perpetrated by some of the priests, even though it put more young people in danger. A few ridiculous hail mary's  isn't going to absolve those sick perverts of their evil deeds. 

[Aruntraveller]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50165998
And so it goes on. I just don't know how anyone can be a devout Catholic these days, as their church has preferred to cover up the crimes perpetrated by some of the priests, even though it put more young people in danger. A few ridiculous hail mary's  isn't going to absolve those sick perverts of their evil deeds. 

You need to separate individual religious people from the institution. It's not that difficult. I have family members who are devout Catholics and are just as angry as you are about these misdeeds, it does not affect their faith.

And why should it? Paedophiles appear in all sorts of organisations. The RC is no different. Cover ups are, unfortunately, a part of human nature. Note human nature, nowt to do with religion.

[Nearly Sane]

You need to separate individual religious people from the institution. It's not that difficult. I have family members who are devout Catholics and are just as angry as you are about these misdeeds, it does not affect their faith.

And why should it? Paedophiles appear in all sorts of organisations. The RC is no different. Cover ups are, unfortunately, a part of human nature. Note human nature, nowt to do with religion.

And for many of those people their experience is of community which is entirely alien to this. It's about the friend they have known all their life, the family they have loved, the priest who supported them. Yes, those in the RCC who have abused and raped need to be dealt with, and those who covered it up similarly but the 1.5 billion people are no more guilty than the 6 billion of the rest of us for all sorts of other stuff.

[Anchorman]

Wot TV and NS said. LR, I was immensly honoured to go to an albeit distant cousdin's ordination as priest four years ago. No, I don't share  some of their doctrine, but more unites than divides us. I can guarantee that the overwhelming majority of both clergy and laity in that denomination are sickened by the conduct of a few - too many, but still a few. To cast the whole institution as morally bankrupt is OTT, even for you.

[Roses]

I think an institution which has turned blind eye to the terrible abuse over the years is morally bankrupt and despicable.

[Anchorman]

I think an institution which has turned blind eye to the terrible abuse over the years is morally bankrupt and despicable.

   


Well, you must condemn an awful loy of both secular and religious institutions for the sickening crimes of a few.

[Nearly Sane]

I think an institution which has turned blind eye to the terrible abuse over the years is morally bankrupt and despicable.

I think there is a question here about how one sees the 'institution'. The posts from myself, Trentvoyager, and Anchorman are about seeing it as a collection of individuals and seeing it through their eyes. They can separate their own experience from the RCC as an institution which they can be critical of. You, Littleroses, see it as a monolith, and there is certainly validity in that as the higher levels of the RCC often seek to portray it that way. Indeed it's that hierarchical approach that is seen as the RCC's failing from those churches that broke away to emphasise what they believed was the personal relationship with god.

But for those of us who are close to RCs, the difference in how an individual views their beliefs is not the simple black and white of doctrine and schism, but rather a celebration of the differences and simalarities that make us human. There are some RCs I know who have left the church because of the scandals of abuse and cover up, there are some whose faith has been shaken and they take much less part, there are some who have seen it as a call to fight those scandals and stand up for the victims. I've seen those type of approaches in people in political parties that have gone through what might be seen as similar issues. Of the friends I have who are members of the Labour Party, their reactions to the question of anti Semitism have also taken myriad paths.

[Roses]

My Irish great grandmother, a lovely woman who died when I was 8, married a catholic man who  converted to Anglicanism. Their daughter, my father's mother, was kidnapped by the catholic side of her family several times, with the approval of her uncle a Cardinal. So I have rather a jaundiced opinion of the RCC, especially as it is possible my grandmother's childhood trauma may have turned her into the highly unpleasant woman she became.

[Anchorman]

My Irish great grandmother, a lovely woman who died when I was 8, married a catholic man who  converted to Anglicanism. Their daughter, my father's mother, was kidnapped by the catholic side of her family several times, with the approval of her uncle a Cardinal. So I have rather a jaundiced opinion of the RCC, especially as it is possible my grandmother's childhood trauma may have turned her into the highly unpleasant woman she became.

   



And?
My mother's natural parents died when she was a toddler.
She was adopted by an RC couple, whose son remained a committed member of the RC Church till the day he died. My mum, however, was enrolled in the local non-denominational school - because her parents had no real religious conviction - and allowed to make her own choice.
She chose to accept Christ ten years after I did - to the joy of our RC family.
There has been no bitternes, nor confrontation...my only real gripe was that, when I visited them in Glasgow, their church hall had a bar.
Ours, sadly, did not.

[Aruntraveller]

My Irish great grandmother, a lovely woman who died when I was 8, married a catholic man who  converted to Anglicanism. Their daughter, my father's mother, was kidnapped by the catholic side of her family several times, with the approval of her uncle a Cardinal. So I have rather a jaundiced opinion of the RCC, especially as it is possible my grandmother's childhood trauma may have turned her into the highly unpleasant woman she became.

The past is foreign country.

[Nearly Sane]

The past is foreign country.

People's perceptions though are obviously coloured by what their experience of the RCC are, and what the experiences of those close to them who are or were in it. Having been brought up in it, I have a great deal of ambivalence about it as an institution but I also have a great deal of love for many members of church. They, as people, represent the RCC to me much more than the flummeries in Rome.

[Aruntraveller]

People's perceptions though are obviously coloured by what their experience of the RCC are, and what the experiences of those close to them who are or were in it. Having been brought up in it, I have a great deal of ambivalence about it as an institution but I also have a great deal of love for many members of church. They, as people, represent the RCC to me much more than the flummeries in Rome.

I agree, but as someone once said "they fuck you up, your Mum and Dad." Sooner or later for your own good you have to recognise that and just let it go. The same applies to most things I would argue.

[Roses]

The past is foreign country.

Not in my case unfortunately.

[Nearly Sane]

I agree, but as someone once said "they fuck you up, your Mum and Dad." Sooner or later for your own good you have to recognise that and just let it go. The same applies to most things I would argue.

Yep, I went through a period of being a bit sanctimonious about it - so when I was initially asked to be a godparent to a nephew, I said no. Then after a few more years, I accepted it was just social ritual for the people, and if Satan does he exist then I am happy to denounce him and all his works.

[Steve H]

Not in my case unfortunately.

It's about time you got over the traumas of your childhood. We all have unpleasant experiences in our childhoods, but most of us don't use them as an excuse for our prejudices into our 60s and 70s. You also should learn that you shouldn't generalise from particular instances.

[Nearly Sane]

It's about time you got over the traumas of your childhood. We all have unpleasant experiences in our childhoods, but most of us don't use them as an excuse for our prejudices into our 60s and 70s. You also should learn that you shouldn't generalise from particular instances.

If someone is traumatised by something, it seems a deeply unpleasant to say that they are just using their trauma as an excuse.

[Steve H]

If someone is traumatised by something, it seems a deeply unpleasant to say that they are just using their trauma as an excuse.

I think a bit of straight talking is sometimes necessary, even if it is unpleasant at the time.

[Nearly Sane]

I think a bit of straight talking is sometimes necessary, even if it is unpleasant at the time.

Was that in your thesis to get your qualification in trauma counselling?

[Outrider]

You need to separate individual religious people from the institution. It's not that difficult. I have family members who are devout Catholics and are just as angry as you are about these misdeeds, it does not affect their faith.

And why should it? Paedophiles appear in all sorts of organisations. The RC is no different. Cover ups are, unfortunately, a part of human nature. Note human nature, nowt to do with religion.

Not in a theological way, perhaps, but organisationally the Catholic Church stand out amongst the organisations which have identified this sort of activity amongst their ranks in their continued opacity to external investigation, their continued failure across multiple jurisdictions to openly assist in ongoing investigations and enquiries and their continued attempts to divert any official processes of external agencies into internal matters that they can deal with in a closed shop.

The Catholic Church hierarchy and organisation are consistently putting their own narrow, short-term interests before the interests of justice (presumably) in the belief that the institution is more important than any of the individuals.  That's a political and legal view rather than a religious one, on their part, but it still makes them stand apart from the overwhelming majority of other organisations which have found themselves in these sorts of situations.

O.

[Roses]

It's about time you got over the traumas of your childhood. We all have unpleasant experiences in our childhoods, but most of us don't use them as an excuse for our prejudices into our 60s and 70s. You also should learn that you shouldn't generalise from particular instances. Finally, you should realise that "imo" is not an argument.

Steve, your opinion is worth nothing as you have no idea what you are talking about regarding my past.

[Nearly Sane]

Not in a theological way, perhaps, but organisationally the Catholic Church stand out amongst the organisations which have identified this sort of activity amongst their ranks in their continued opacity to external investigation, their continued failure across multiple jurisdictions to openly assist in ongoing investigations and enquiries and their continued attempts to divert any official processes of external agencies into internal matters that they can deal with in a closed shop.

The Catholic Church hierarchy and organisation are consistently putting their own narrow, short-term interests before the interests of justice (presumably) in the belief that the institution is more important than any of the individuals.  That's a political and legal view rather than a religious one, on their part, but it still makes them stand apart from the overwhelming majority of other organisations which have found themselves in these sorts of situations.

O.

Is that true? I can think of similar things happening in virtually of our political parties. And indeed most religious groups. Also on this subject a number of football clubs.

[Roses]

Anyone who covers up sexual abuse, for whatever reason, should be prosecuted.

[Outrider]

Is that true? I can think of similar things happening in virtually of our political parties. And indeed most religious groups. Also on this subject a number of football clubs.

I think this is the case.  Some political parties, social clubs, sports clubs etc. have done this in the past - arguably the BBC is one of the higher profile establishments that's been involved.  In the main, though, currently, they're cooperating, opening up and attempting to be more transparent - the Catholic Church isn't, at least not consistently.  It's saying some of the right things, there are individual examples of people within the organisation trying to change, but it's been significantly slower to do so.

O.

[Roses]

I think this is the case.  Some political parties, social clubs, sports clubs etc. have done this in the past - arguably the BBC is one of the higher profile establishments that's been involved.  In the main, though, currently, they're cooperating, opening up and attempting to be more transparent - the Catholic Church isn't, at least not consistently.  It's saying some of the right things, there are individual examples of people within the organisation trying to change, but it's been significantly slower to do so.

O.

That appears to be the case.

[Alan Burns]

I think this is the case.  Some political parties, social clubs, sports clubs etc. have done this in the past - arguably the BBC is one of the higher profile establishments that's been involved.  In the main, though, currently, they're cooperating, opening up and attempting to be more transparent - the Catholic Church isn't, at least not consistently.  It's saying some of the right things, there are individual examples of people within the organisation trying to change, but it's been significantly slower to do so.

O.

As an active member of the RC church I can confirm that there are extensive procedures now in place help prevent future incidents and ensure any perceived misconduct is dealt with quickly, openly and efficiently.