Author Topic: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry  (Read 103603 times)

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #150 on: November 20, 2019, 01:11:00 PM »
Good old Mafia Boss god killing innocent children as a lesson.

Didn't the RAF use the same tactic (bombing the opponents' civilians) in the war?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #151 on: November 20, 2019, 01:14:46 PM »
Didn't the RAF use the same tactic (bombing the opponents' civilians) in the war?
And? Are you suggesting your god is a bomb?

jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #152 on: November 20, 2019, 01:21:05 PM »
Didn't the RAF use the same tactic (bombing the opponents' civilians) in the war?
They did that precisely because they were not God. They couldn't bomb during the day because the bombers kept getting shot down and they couldn't see military targets at night so they had to bomb things they could see, like cities.

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Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #153 on: November 20, 2019, 01:30:14 PM »
Killing civilians wasn't an explicit policy.

jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #154 on: November 20, 2019, 01:32:07 PM »
Killing civilians wasn't an explicit policy.

I think there is plenty of evidence that it was.
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Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #155 on: November 20, 2019, 01:44:34 PM »
Ex 12:12 says "For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments—I am the LORD"

Here is a reason for the tenth plague: judgment on the Egyptian gods - demonstrating that they were powerless to protect the people.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 02:01:56 PM by Spud »

SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #156 on: November 20, 2019, 01:55:43 PM »
Have you ever attended one?
No. How about answering the question?
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Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #157 on: November 20, 2019, 01:59:23 PM »
"In smiting the firstborn of all living beings, man and beast, God struck down the objects of Egyptian worship"
-Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #158 on: November 20, 2019, 02:05:10 PM »
Ex 12:12 says "For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments—I am the LORD"

Here is a reason for the tenth plague: judgment on the Egyptian gods - demonstrating that they were powerless to protect the people.

So the killing of an entire nation's eldest children is fine if you've got a point to prove?  This is morality in action, is it?

O.
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Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #159 on: November 20, 2019, 02:58:41 PM »
"In smiting the firstborn of all living beings, man and beast, God struck down the objects of Egyptian worship"
-Barnes' Notes on the Bible

And you approve of that action?
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Anchorman

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #160 on: November 20, 2019, 04:52:36 PM »
Ex 12:12 says "For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments—I am the LORD"

Here is a reason for the tenth plague: judgment on the Egyptian gods - demonstrating that they were powerless to protect the people.
   



You kniow (he said, putting his Egyptian geek hat on), This passage clearly demonstrates that Exodudus was, at best, heavikly re-wriien in the sixth or fifth centuries, invalidating its' use as anything resembling histort.
You see, at that time - the 'Lape Period' - ordinary folk tried to acdcess their Egyptian gods through industrialised petitions sent via millions of mummified animals. This was because the authority of kings in spiritual matters had changed radically over the centuries.
Five centuries earlier - when central authority was stronger - petitions were sent to the gods via the king. He was the mediator, theoretically.
At that time, apart from annual festivals which were kneese-up for the ordinary person, the only gods which weere ubiquitous in ordanary lives were Osiris - for when you snuffed it -Bes, Tawaret and maybe Amun at a push.
The idea of demonstrating the impotence of the Egyptian gods was farcical - since the king alone was the channel of the su
pposed power.
Since the plagues = if they existed at all in the way Exodus describes - did not depose the king or detabilise the state, then they failed.
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Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #161 on: November 21, 2019, 12:31:41 PM »
'Vengeance is mine, I will repay', seems to be one of the favourite verses of the extreme 'born again' Christians on the American forum I am inhabiting. Their god can do no wrong, and has a right to slaughter anyone if it wishes to do so, even innocent children. >:(
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Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #162 on: November 21, 2019, 12:43:01 PM »
So the killing of an entire nation's eldest children is fine if you've got a point to prove?  This is morality in action, is it?

O.

I'm asking the same question.

The firstborn represents the 'firstfruit of all their strength' (Ps 105:36).

When the water in Egypt turned to blood (literal or non-literal, eg red algae) it represented the blood of the Hebrew boys (thrown into the Nile) which called for vengeance as in Genesis 4:10 ("And He saith, ‘What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood is crying unto Me from the ground;").

I don't understand why exactly God waited 80 years and took vengeance on the next generation.
 
Writing about the cities of refuge for someone accused of manslaughter in Israel,  J.B.Jordan says in his book "Law of the Covenant",

Quote
Notice that when God destroyed Egypt, He acted as Avenger of blood, by turning the Nile to blood, thus defiling all Egypt. This was a symbolic manifestation of the previous bloodying of the Nile which occurred when Israelite babies were thrown into it (Ex. 1:22). The bloodied land cried out for God to destroy each family in it, by destroying the firstborm of each household. Each household which was under the blood of the Passover, under the blood of the death of the high priest Jesus Christ (symbolized by the blood of the lamb), was a miniature city of refuge. The death of this high priest enabled them to leave these sanctuaries in the morning of the exodus. The inhabitants of these cities of refuge were the firstborn sons, spared by the Angel of Death. Later, when the firstborn were replaced by the Levites (Numbers 3), they become the inhabitants of the cities of refuge, which were all Levitical cities (Num. 35:6).

I've underlined the bit that seems to go some way towards explaining why the firstborn in particular were killed.

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #163 on: November 21, 2019, 01:40:54 PM »
I'm asking the same question.

The firstborn represents the 'firstfruit of all their strength' (Ps 105:36).

When the water in Egypt turned to blood (literal or non-literal, eg red algae) it represented the blood of the Hebrew boys (thrown into the Nile) which called for vengeance as in Genesis 4:10 ("And He saith, ‘What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood is crying unto Me from the ground;").

I don't understand why exactly God waited 80 years and took vengeance on the next generation.
 
Writing about the cities of refuge for someone accused of manslaughter in Israel,  J.B.Jordan says in his book "Law of the Covenant",

I've underlined the bit that seems to go some way towards explaining why the firstborn in particular were killed.

If it isn't fictional story and god was responsible, there is absolutely no excuse for its action.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #164 on: November 21, 2019, 04:27:23 PM »
If it isn't fictional story and god was responsible, there is absolutely no excuse for its action.

From Wikipedia
Talk: The Exodus/Archive 8

Quote
Well, when even the reality of such event cannot get beyond hypothesis stage, it is unhistorical by default. One does not need to disprove the historicity of the Exodus, it is unhistorical until proven historical, which you have conceded that it cannot get beyond hypothesis stage. The mistake was to assume that there would be a symmetry between historical and unhistorical, i.e. that if there is no evidence, neither could be asserted. History works by asserting unhistorical character by default, it is historicity which demands proof. If historicity is proven, the event ceases to be unhistorical. So the burden of proof is upon those who assert that the Exodus would be historical, in lack of such proof the other side wins by default. It's a matter of elementary logic, no need to see it as a personal attack. I just discussed what you have asserted, not your person. Remember that we are speaking of science, i.e. of facts, evidence, falsifiability, scientific consensus and so on. Theology requires none of these, it is able to construct true belief out of thin air. Theology does not establish facts, it establishes what a certain church should believe.

Anchorman has given us the benefit of his intense scholarly research as well. There is not the slightest reason to believe that these fairy tales happened. The onus is on poor old Spud (he apparently being the last fundie left around here) to convince us that they did, if anyone is really bothered.
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Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #165 on: November 21, 2019, 04:32:32 PM »
I'm asking the same question.

The firstborn represents the 'firstfruit of all their strength' (Ps 105:36).

When the water in Egypt turned to blood (literal or non-literal, eg red algae) it represented the blood of the Hebrew boys (thrown into the Nile) which called for vengeance as in Genesis 4:10 ("And He saith, ‘What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood is crying unto Me from the ground;").

I don't understand why exactly God waited 80 years and took vengeance on the next generation.
 
Writing about the cities of refuge for someone accused of manslaughter in Israel,  J.B.Jordan says in his book "Law of the Covenant",

I've underlined the bit that seems to go some way towards explaining why the firstborn in particular were killed.

I'm coming at it from the other end, so to speak; I'm trying to ask, 'Is there any situation in which killing innocent children to punish a group is justified?', and I just can't come up with one.  I get that, in cases of war and the like, it is accepted that there will be civilian casualties, and you judge military conduct, in part, by much effort is taken to avoid those civilian deaths; this is supposed to be an omnipotent being, there shouldn't even be collatoral damage, but that's not what this is.  This is terrorism; it's the application of violence to a vulnerable, civilian portion of the populace in order to effect political changes.

If it were real, it would fundamentally undermine any claim the Christian deity could make to morality.

O.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #166 on: November 21, 2019, 04:42:20 PM »


If it were real, it would fundamentally undermine any claim the Christian deity could make to morality.

O.

Because of the irreconcilable contradictions in the way God is represented in the Bible, liberal Christians have long seen these old tales as representing the way the early Hebrews thought God might be like, and the Bible is in this sense a series of thought experiments. It is quite clear that there is an evolution of thought here. I don't envy such Christians in having to make their selection of which Biblical accounts they think are truer to the nature of the divine, but most of them have the sense to realise that the old stories have only the slightest link with historical reality  - or none whatsoever.
Not worth worrying about, unless you're beset by fundies and Orthodox* Jews (the latter probably the more pleasant prospect).

For those that know, insert appropriate fundamentalist Jews here. I originally wrote 'Hasidic'
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 04:45:08 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #167 on: November 21, 2019, 06:48:14 PM »
Ex 12:12 says "For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the first-born in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments—I am the LORD"

Here is a reason for the tenth plague: judgment on the Egyptian gods - demonstrating that they were powerless to protect the people.

But it's horrific. Couldn't God have found a way to judge the Egyptian gods without murdering loads of innocent people?
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jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #168 on: November 21, 2019, 06:49:28 PM »
If it isn't fictional story and god was responsible, there is absolutely no excuse for its action.
It is fictional, fortunately.
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Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #169 on: November 21, 2019, 07:50:19 PM »
You kniow (he said, putting his Egyptian geek hat on), This passage clearly demonstrates that Exodudus was, at best, heavikly re-wriien in the sixth or fifth centuries, invalidating its' use as anything resembling histort.
You see, at that time - the 'Lape Period' - ordinary folk tried to acdcess their Egyptian gods through industrialised petitions sent via millions of mummified animals. This was because the authority of kings in spiritual matters had changed radically over the centuries.
Five centuries earlier - when central authority was stronger - petitions were sent to the gods via the king. He was the mediator, theoretically.
At that time, apart from annual festivals which were kneese-up for the ordinary person, the only gods which weere ubiquitous in ordanary lives were Osiris - for when you snuffed it -Bes, Tawaret and maybe Amun at a push.
The idea of demonstrating the impotence of the Egyptian gods was farcical - since the king alone was the channel of the su
pposed power.
Since the plagues = if they existed at all in the way Exodus describes - did not depose the king or detabilise the state, then they failed.
I recall reading that the plagues are arranged in sets of three, and that the timing would have been impossible if interpreted literally. So possibly they were edited later. For example, the plague of hail killed all the livestock that had been left outside, but two plagues previously, all the livestock had already died.
That doesn't mean the plagues didn't happen.
Even if the pharaoh survived, he was humiliated and the state devastated, thus their gods, accessed through the pharaoh, were shown to be either non-existent or not very good at their job.

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #170 on: November 21, 2019, 07:56:10 PM »
But it's horrific. Couldn't God have found a way to judge the Egyptian gods without murdering loads of innocent people?
Sometimes the innocent suffer as a result of other peoples' actions or lack of action.

God seems to have been wanting to show the Egyptians that there was no god like him in the whole earth, Exodus 9:10. The plagues certainly would have achieved that, by the time they were finished.

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #171 on: November 22, 2019, 08:41:44 AM »
Sometimes the innocent suffer as a result of other peoples' actions or lack of action.

God seems to have been wanting to show the Egyptians that there was no god like him in the whole earth, Exodus 9:10. The plagues certainly would have achieved that, by the time they were finished.

If that statement of yours had any credibility, it says more about the evil nature of the Biblical god than anything else.  ::)
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jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #172 on: November 22, 2019, 09:39:57 AM »
Sometimes the innocent suffer as a result of other peoples' actions or lack of action.
That's true and usually we condemn the people whose action or inaction causes innocent people to suffer. Why do you give God a free pass?
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Anchorman

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #173 on: November 22, 2019, 10:31:21 AM »
I recall reading that the plagues are arranged in sets of three, and that the timing would have been impossible if interpreted literally. So possibly they were edited later. For example, the plague of hail killed all the livestock that had been left outside, but two plagues previously, all the livestock had already died.
That doesn't mean the plagues didn't happen.
Even if the pharaoh survived, he was humiliated and the state devastated, thus their gods, accessed through the pharaoh, were shown to be either non-existent or not very good at their job.
   


.....even if the
pharaoh survived.....
Spud, we have almost the full set!
From the very beginning of Egypt's New Kingdom, toill the ninth century BC, we have all the mummies of ther kings...the only exceptions being an ephemeral female ruler who ruled around 1332 BC, Amenmesse of dyn XX (Though some have claimed to identify his mummy as well, but he was defeated, not by a Hebrew insurgance, but an internal family coup), and the virtually puppet RamessesXI. who, at his death, was far too old to have led an army.
We can identify age at death, in most cases cause of death - from cancer, through disease, to murder.
None - not one - shows any indication of having died in battle - though there are suspuicions that Tutankhamun may have died in Syria, fighting the Mittani).
You need to look at the history God has provided, as well as Scripture, before separating fact from allegory, theology or heavily edited oral memory.
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Christine

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #174 on: November 22, 2019, 01:00:42 PM »
Whether the stories are true or fiction isn't my main issue.  Obviously it would have been better for people thousands of years ago if they're fiction, but from today's perspective it's not relevant.  This collection of stories is used by Christians, from Creationists to Lovely Liberal Anglicans, to teach lessons to children.  One key lesson appears to me to be that it's a godly thing to punish the innocent for other people's behaviour.  Old Testament and New.

To compare a supposedly all-powerful and good god to the RAF is ludicrous.