Author Topic: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry  (Read 103419 times)

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2019, 03:42:57 PM »
I have joined an American 'Christian' forum more out of horrific fascination than anything else. :o Many of the posters are the most extreme fundies I have ever come across. Some were advocating that heretics should be burned at the stake, they reckoned god would be up for that. :o Some see nothing wrong in being white supremacist. >:(

I doubt it will be long before I am banned as I am likely to lose my rag completely.
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Robbie

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2019, 04:35:47 PM »
If you find it so upsetting, don't be involved. We know enough from reading, the media and television documentaries to make us feel incensed, there's no point piling it on.

I'd look at threads on a forum such as you described, occasionally, but wouldn't post. Whatever floats your boat.

Jeremy - difficulties (putting it mildly) with Jezebel. It's mentioned briefly here:-
https://www.biography.com/religious-figure/jezebel##targetText=Jezebel%20was%20a%20Phoenician%20princess%20in%20the%209th%20century%20who,prophet%20Elijah%20despised%20such%20actions.

(Fascinating - I would read a novel based on Jezebel and see anything about her on TV.)
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2019, 04:39:22 PM »
Can  you give some examples from the Bible of God doing things that were not bad excluding any stuff that Jesus did and any stuff that God did to mitigate bad things he had previously done?

This is a serious challenge. In general, I agree with your point that there is no "God character": the Bible was written by many people, all with different ideas of the character of God, but I can't think of any unimpeachably good things that any of these God characters did.

This is a difficult one, especially for a non-believer to attempt. It's made all the more difficult because we need to sift the stuff which is obviously myth from the accounts which we know have some historical accuracy, and even the events which have some historical evidence have a fair deal of bias in favour of the righteousness of the Jews compared with other peoples.

I'd have to agree that the writers of the earlier part of the Bible seemed to think that they could depict God acting in all kinds of revolting ways if it seemed to further the prospering of his 'chosen people' (Numbers 31 and the whole of Joshua come to mind).
I suppose you could make out a case that the Egyptians got what was coming to them when they refused to allow the Jewish people to go free after they had been enslaved for so long.

But all that belongs to the realm of myth, and almost certainly none of it has any historical truth. Two passages which appear to be based on fact come to mind, however. The first is referred to in the Book of Isaiah, and deals with the liberation of the Jews from the Babylonian exile, where God inspires King Cyrus (whom Isaiah refers to as God's Messiah) to bring about the liberation of the Jews from exile. That would certainly have been a good thing for the Jews which God was supposed to have done, and it didn't involve bloodshed (presumably they were exiled in the first place because they didn't 'keep God's commandments'  - that was the usual explanation for the Jews' misfortunes, an explanation which rings just a bit hollow).
The second one refers to the Siege of Jerusalem by the Assyrian king Sennacherib in the reign of Jewish king  Hezekiah - the story is also told on an Assyrian monolyth. The siege was certainly lifted before all the Jews starved to death. The Bible says this was due to the intervention of an angel whom God sent; the Assyrian account says Hezekiah payed off a huge tribute in gold and jewels. Naturally enough this was followed by wholesale slaughter of the Assyrians, which may or may not have happened, but being starved to death is not likely to make a large population particularly compassionate towards their enemies.
There is one example from biblical myth which indicates God's concern for people beyond his Jewish 'chosen', and that is in the Book of Jonah. God is very concerned that he might not be able to contain his anger if Jonah doesn't go and preach to the people of Nineveh and tell them how they should be behaving. No doubt this was because God was very vexed about a lot of buggery and general sexual promiscuity going on, but may be also because the Ninevites were still performing child sacrifice which we would certainly think was a quite a reasonable phenomenon to get steamed up about (the Jews had at least been more or less weaned away from this vile practice, unlike many middle-eastern peoples). The story also illustrates the idea which becomes more evident in some parts of the Old Testament that God is concerned with all the nations of the world, and that the Jews have a special part to play in the unfolding of this master-plan.
Given the huge role Jews have played (despite their historical sufferings) in the amelioration of human life in so many different ways, it seems to me that viewing their God in a completely negative sense can't be telling the whole story.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 05:31:52 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2019, 04:43:18 PM »
If you find it so upsetting, don't be involved. We know enough from reading, the media and television documentaries to make us feel incensed, there's no point piling it on.

I'd look at threads on a forum such as you described, occasionally, but wouldn't post. Whatever floats your boat.

Jeremy - difficulties (putting it mildly) with Jezebel. It's mentioned briefly here:-
https://www.biography.com/religious-figure/jezebel##targetText=Jezebel%20was%20a%20Phoenician%20princess%20in%20the%209th%20century%20who,prophet%20Elijah%20despised%20such%20actions.

(Fascinating - I would read a novel based on Jezebel and see anything about her on TV.)

I didn't say I found it upsetting, 'horrific fascination' was the term I used.

Of all the very many forums I have posted on over the years I can honestly say R&E is the very best. :)
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Robbie

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2019, 04:50:49 PM »
That's good.

(I'm going to find myself an American extreme Christian forum to have a sly gander.)
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Anchorman

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2019, 02:12:26 PM »
 ##52 The actual history here is complex, and, frankly, hard to interpret. Certainly Israel/Judah got off lightly from old Cyrus's machinations. We'd put that down to God's work, of course - but frankly, I don't know why that area was spared in the conquest of the near east. That some residual Jewish population remained whilst the leaders and high ranking classes were carried off by the Assyrians intro Babylon is obvious; for starters, the re-unified Egyptian state recruited Jewish mercenaries to patrol their southern borders. These soldiers (and presumably, their families) settled around the Nile and built a temple - a Jewish Temple to the Lord, with sacrificial alters - on the island of Abu (Elephantine). When the AssyrioBabylonian dynasty collapsed and the Persians became the superpower, the reason for promoting Israel and prospering it is unknown; certainly evidence of construction projects all over the land from this period are easily found, and there seems to have been a 'velvet glove' approach from the first few Persian kings. Their treatment of Egypt was entirely different; the land was divided into five districts controlled by Persian officials, the Egyptian military disbanded, and temple incomes siphoned off to Persepolis. The Persian kings - who never actually set foot in Egypt - formed the twenty seventh dynasty, had themselves depicted as Pharaohs, with full Egyptian Pharonic titles, and governed as absentee landlords. Cmbyses DID lose an army - probably a resurgence of native resistance, but, on the whole, the Persians marked the end of the last truly Egyptian state. There were a few efforts to revive it until Alexander put it out of its misery in 333 BC.
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SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2019, 10:57:31 AM »
I have joined an American 'Christian' forum more out of horrific fascination than anything else. :o Many of the posters are the most extreme fundies I have ever come across. Some were advocating that heretics should be burned at the stake, they reckoned god would be up for that. :o Some see nothing wrong in being white supremacist. >:(

I doubt it will be long before I am banned as I am likely to lose my rag completely.
Silly girl. Mind you, I've done the same - joined ultra-fundie, hair-raisingly right-wing forums and got banned in short order. Have fun!
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Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2019, 12:05:05 PM »
Silly girl. Mind you, I've done the same - joined ultra-fundie, hair-raisingly right-wing forums and got banned in short order. Have fun!

I agree I am silly.  thank you for calling me a girl, it makes a change from 'senile old bat' my Baby Sister's favourite name for her eldest sister. ;D
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2019, 04:14:39 PM »
##52 The actual history here is complex, and, frankly, hard to interpret. Certainly Israel/Judah got off lightly from old Cyrus's machinations. We'd put that down to God's work, of course - but frankly, I don't know why that area was spared in the conquest of the near east. That some residual Jewish population remained whilst the leaders and high ranking classes were carried off by the Assyrians intro Babylon is obvious; for starters, the re-unified Egyptian state recruited Jewish mercenaries to patrol their southern borders. These soldiers (and presumably, their families) settled around the Nile and built a temple - a Jewish Temple to the Lord, with sacrificial alters - on the island of Abu (Elephantine). When the AssyrioBabylonian dynasty collapsed and the Persians became the superpower, the reason for promoting Israel and prospering it is unknown; certainly evidence of construction projects all over the land from this period are easily found, and there seems to have been a 'velvet glove' approach from the first few Persian kings. Their treatment of Egypt was entirely different; the land was divided into five districts controlled by Persian officials, the Egyptian military disbanded, and temple incomes siphoned off to Persepolis. The Persian kings - who never actually set foot in Egypt - formed the twenty seventh dynasty, had themselves depicted as Pharaohs, with full Egyptian Pharonic titles, and governed as absentee landlords. Cmbyses DID lose an army - probably a resurgence of native resistance, but, on the whole, the Persians marked the end of the last truly Egyptian state. There were a few efforts to revive it until Alexander put it out of its misery in 333 BC.

Thanks for that, Anchorman. Knew I could rely on you for a bit of proper scholarship. Read somewhere that Cyrus might have adopted a velvet glove approach to the Jews because he was a Zoroastrian, and might have recognised some resemblances between the Jewish  god and his own. Others say he worshiped Marduk, who qualities I'm unacquainted with.*

*I've subsequently found this about Marduk as referred to in ancient Mesopotamian literature:

""The Poem of the Righteous Sufferer"  [This] literary composition, which consists of four tablets of 120 lines each, begins with a 40-line hymnic praise of Marduk, in which his dual nature is described in complex poetic wording: Marduk is powerful, both good and evil, just as he can help humanity, he can also destroy people."

Well, that sounds just like Yahweh, as described in Isaiah 45.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 04:24:34 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Robbie

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2019, 05:50:48 PM »
Silly girl. Mind you, I've done the same - joined ultra-fundie, hair-raisingly right-wing forums and got banned in short order. Have fun!

Please point me in the direction of one of those forums steve, I won't post but will voyeur.

Anchor, thanks, interesting information.
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SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2019, 11:08:22 AM »
May I point out that some closed-minded atheists also use the bible as an excuse for bigotry - one, for example, who write stuff like "the god character in the bible, if it exists, is an evil psycho imo".
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Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #61 on: November 13, 2019, 11:53:00 AM »
May I point out that some closed-minded atheists also use the bible as an excuse for bigotry - one, for example, who write stuff like "the god character in the bible, if it exists, is an evil psycho imo".

You obviously haven't read that book, if you can't see how unpleasant it is. One has a right to be bigoted towards an entity, which is more evil than the worst of all humans, if it exists.
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jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2019, 11:59:55 AM »
May I point out that some closed-minded atheists also use the bible as an excuse for bigotry - one, for example, who write stuff like "the god character in the bible, if it exists, is an evil psycho imo".

That's not bigotry. Stating the facts is not bigotry. The god of the Bible once wiped out almost all life on Earth just because the humans were being naughty. He also killed the first male offspring of every human or other animal in Egypt just because the Pharaoh wouldn't do as he was told. That's bad enough, but the reason Pharaoh wouldn't do as he was told was because God had deliberately "hardened his heart" so he (God) had an excuse to punish the Egyptians severely.

There are hundreds of stories in the Bible that show God is a psycho.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2019, 12:37:15 PM »
May I point out that some closed-minded atheists also use the bible as an excuse for bigotry - one, for example, who write stuff like "the god character in the bible, if it exists, is an evil psycho imo".
In what way is that bigotry?

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2019, 12:37:35 PM »
That's not bigotry. Stating the facts is not bigotry. The god of the Bible once wiped out almost all life on Earth just because the humans were being naughty. He also killed the first male offspring of every human or other animal in Egypt just because the Pharaoh wouldn't do as he was told. That's bad enough, but the reason Pharaoh wouldn't do as he was told was because God had deliberately "hardened his heart" so he (God) had an excuse to punish the Egyptians severely.

There are hundreds of stories in the Bible that show God is a psycho.

Good post. :)
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Walter

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2019, 03:17:34 PM »
May I point out that some closed-minded atheists also use the bible as an excuse for bigotry - one, for example, who write stuff like "the god character in the bible, if it exists, is an evil psycho imo".
Steve H

Personally the only excuse I have for my bigotry is it amuses me 👍😱👽

Robbie

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2019, 07:41:06 PM »
You don't say, Walter. Who'd have guessed?
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Walter

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2019, 08:37:09 PM »
You don't say, Walter. Who'd have guessed?
robbie
I have no idea what you mean !

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2019, 01:49:13 PM »
A poster on the forum I mentioned in my OP is boasting about how he is raking in the cash by preaching about the sermon on the mount,YE GODS.  :o
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2019, 01:59:13 PM »
A poster on the forum I mentioned in my OP is boasting about how he is raking in the cash by preaching about the sermon on the mount,YE GODS.  :o
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Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2019, 02:26:33 PM »
Blessed are the gullible

For they shall inherit huge debts! >:(

Another thing that shocked me was someone claiming a father insisted on accompanying his teenage daughter to the gynaecologist on a regular basis and be able to watch the procedure as they examined her to check her hymen was still intact and therefore she hadn't been wicked enough to have had sex. Admittedly many  other posters were shocked too at the father's sexually abusive attitude. However, some praised him for being a good father and in charge of his daughter as he should be. I reckon the guy would in the deep proverbial if he lived in the UK, so would the gynaecologist for allowing him to be present.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2019, 02:35:22 PM »
For they shall inherit huge debts! >:(

Another thing that shocked me was someone claiming a father insisted on accompanying his teenage daughter to the gynaecologist on a regular basis and be able to watch the procedure as they examined her to check her hymen was still intact and therefore she hadn't been wicked enough to have had sex. Admittedly many  other posters were shocked too at the father's sexually abusive attitude. However, some praised him for being a good father and in charge of his daughter as he should be. I reckon the guy would in the deep proverbial if he lived in the UK, so would the gynaecologist for allowing him to be present.

Presumably the discussion has been raised because of T.I.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/ti-deyjah-harris-hymen-virginity-test-social-media-unfollow-a9199471.html

Robbie

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2019, 05:22:19 PM »
I read about that a couple of days ago. I didn't believe it, felt sure TI made it up to be controversial. He raps about sex all the time. Not nice for his daughter though, Idon't blame her for unfollowing him. I imagine she'll have a few choice words for him when she sees him next.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2019, 04:27:22 PM »
That's not bigotry. Stating the facts is not bigotry. The god of the Bible once wiped out almost all life on Earth just because the humans were being naughty. He also killed the first male offspring of every human or other animal in Egypt just because the Pharaoh wouldn't do as he was told. That's bad enough, but the reason Pharaoh wouldn't do as he was told was because God had deliberately "hardened his heart" so he (God) had an excuse to punish the Egyptians severely.

There are hundreds of stories in the Bible that show God is a psycho.

The gods of most of the ancient world were psychos, and not many people these days get their knickers in a twist over the evils of Quetzalcoatl, Set or Jupiter.  The only reason we know about them is because scribes and prophets had certain ideas in their heads about what these gods were supposed to be like, and wrote about them on papyrus, parchment and stone. I see no reason to get so steamed up about the supposed deities behind these stories as if they actually existed (which is what LR does all the time about Yahweh - I thought you knew better). The thing about the various ideas about God in the Old Testament is that they differ. The Gods of the first two chapters of Genesis are completely different, for goodness sake: in chapter 1, he is exalted, remote and instantly creative. In chapter 2, he's a bumbling old buffer who wanders around in a garden and can't even find the humans he's formed when they hide from him.
I challenge you to argue that what Ecclesiastes or Micah wrote about God is compatible with what the authors of the Noah stories (there are of course two authors of that episode) wrote, or what the authors of Exodus wrote. God in the Bible does seem to get rather more civilised on occasion - I don't know whether this applies to the other deities of the ancient world (though doubtless their characteristics vary a bit too, depending on who is writing about them, and at which period in history).

What is of course worth getting steamed up about is very much the real subject of this thread (trying to get back on topic here :)  ). That is to say, those people who do believe that there is one 'god of the bible' and that he is good and just, and that any text wrenched out of context from any part of the Bible can be used to legitimise their vile and perverted attitudes and behaviour.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 04:35:56 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #74 on: November 16, 2019, 10:38:04 AM »
The gods of most of the ancient world were psychos, and not many people these days get their knickers in a twist over the evils of Quetzalcoatl, Set or Jupiter.  The only reason we know about them is because scribes and prophets had certain ideas in their heads about what these gods were supposed to be like, and wrote about them on papyrus, parchment and stone. I see no reason to get so steamed up about the supposed deities behind these stories as if they actually existed (which is what LR does all the time about Yahweh - I thought you knew better). The thing about the various ideas about God in the Old Testament is that they differ. The Gods of the first two chapters of Genesis are completely different, for goodness sake: in chapter 1, he is exalted, remote and instantly creative. In chapter 2, he's a bumbling old buffer who wanders around in a garden and can't even find the humans he's formed when they hide from him.
I challenge you to argue that what Ecclesiastes or Micah wrote about God is compatible with what the authors of the Noah stories (there are of course two authors of that episode) wrote, or what the authors of Exodus wrote. God in the Bible does seem to get rather more civilised on occasion - I don't know whether this applies to the other deities of the ancient world (though doubtless their characteristics vary a bit too, depending on who is writing about them, and at which period in history).

What is of course worth getting steamed up about is very much the real subject of this thread (trying to get back on topic here :)  ). That is to say, those people who do believe that there is one 'god of the bible' and that he is good and just, and that any text wrenched out of context from any part of the Bible can be used to legitimise their vile and perverted attitudes and behaviour.
Brilliant! Just bunged this on "Forum best bits".
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