Author Topic: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry  (Read 103612 times)

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #100 on: November 16, 2019, 09:52:57 PM »
Your simplistic view of the biblical God is woefully inadequate. As Dicky Underpants wrote in an excellent comment recently, the picture of God develops. God is certainly a pretty unpleasant character in the earliest books of the OT, but by the time we get to the prophets, we have a God of justice and mercy, who enjoins mercy on us. "What does the Lord require of you, but to act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God?" "And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." –Isaiah 2:3–4
In the |New Testament, we have the father of Jesus Christ, a God of forgiveness and mercy, the God of the beatitudes, a world away from the cruel tribal god the OT starts out with. It's much more complex that "the god character in the bible is an evil psycho imo", so try actually reading the whole of the bible. (Incidentally, there's not really any support, in either Testament, for the traditional concept of hell as everlasting, conscious torment. The fate of the unsaved is annihilation.)
I'm guessing the snake oil salesman came-a-knocking at your door Steve H !

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7987
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #101 on: November 17, 2019, 08:40:24 AM »

God is holy, that's the main thing to remember. Thus, if people become like how they are described in Genesis 6 then God is free to wipe them all out. You might not believe that is what happened, but in the story it is a just punishment. Likewise for the punishment Jesus endured on our behalf: sin came through one man, therefore one sinless man's death was sufficient to atone for the sin of all men, if they repent. Again, you may think this to be a myth, but the God in the story is consistent.
Understood rightly, an honest response to the Bible is to recognise our own sin and deal with it before judging someone else for theirs.

God is holy evil!  >:( It should be looking to expunge its own sins as the deeds attributed to it are worse than those of even the worst of humans.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32489
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #102 on: November 18, 2019, 09:41:03 AM »
it isn't begging the question to say that God is both just and merciful consistently throughout the Bible.
You're right, it's not begging the question, it's just wrong.

What was just and merciful about indiscriminately killing every first born son in Egypt?
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7987
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #103 on: November 18, 2019, 10:37:21 AM »
You're right, it's not begging the question, it's just wrong.

What was just and merciful about indiscriminately killing every first born son in Egypt?

A good question.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4368
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #104 on: November 18, 2019, 04:20:12 PM »
I'm guessing the snake oil salesman came-a-knocking at your door Steve H !

No - it's simply that Steve H has the critical acumen and insight necessary to approach a number of varying ancient texts - something you never have had, and by the look of it never will have. You read the Bible with all the literalism of the most boneheaded fundamentalists of the American Bible Belt - except that where they read 'good', you read 'evil'. Now this leads you into a number of moral difficulties, since there are passages in the Bible which express sentiments which you wouldn't for the life of you disagree with in the ordinary course of your life* - typified by your responding to such sentiments with words like "The god of the bible has no business preaching as It is wholly evil". Since we know nothing of 'god' apart from what very different prophets thought about 'It', your mental confusion here is quite bewildering. In fact, I don't think I've come across an instance of such mind-numbing cognitive dissonance outside the mindset of barking fundamentalists.
You don't really believe in "the god of the bible" - but if there's the remotest possibility that 'It' does exist, then 'It' must be exactly as It is depicted at its worst? Why? I don't believe any god exists, so I take all these descriptions as parts of a large library, simply consisting of words on paper - some appalling, some uplifting. What I can say, though, is that the Bible in itself cannot hurt you. But you write as though you think it still can. Maybe it did once, in the hands of evil people - but I think you're safe now.

*Or maybe not: being merciful doesn't seem to be high on your list of priorities, according to some of the things you have written about people, on the basis of "no smoke without fire".
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4368
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #105 on: November 18, 2019, 04:26:26 PM »
God is holy evil!  >:( It should be looking to expunge its own sins as the deeds attributed to it are worse than those of even the worst of humans.

Is that an expression of actual belief in its existence now? Please tell us just why you are so worried about the stories of ancient myths which have no historical reality at all. Read the Epic of Gilgamesh, and start getting worked up about the non-existent gods there for a change (it deals with the story of a great flood, by the way).
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Walter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #106 on: November 18, 2019, 06:15:52 PM »
No - it's simply that Steve H has the critical acumen and insight necessary to approach a number of varying ancient texts - something you never have had, and by the look of it never will have. You read the Bible with all the literalism of the most boneheaded fundamentalists of the American Bible Belt - except that where they read 'good', you read 'evil'. Now this leads you into a number of moral difficulties, since there are passages in the Bible which express sentiments which you wouldn't for the life of you disagree with in the ordinary course of your life* - typified by your responding to such sentiments with words like "The god of the bible has no business preaching as It is wholly evil". Since we know nothing of 'god' apart from what very different prophets thought about 'It', your mental confusion here is quite bewildering. In fact, I don't think I've come across an instance of such mind-numbing cognitive dissonance outside the mindset of barking fundamentalists.
You don't really believe in "the god of the bible" - but if there's the remotest possibility that 'It' does exist, then 'It' must be exactly as It is depicted at its worst? Why? I don't believe any god exists, so I take all these descriptions as parts of a large library, simply consisting of words on paper - some appalling, some uplifting. What I can say, though, is that the Bible in itself cannot hurt you. But you write as though you think it still can. Maybe it did once, in the hands of evil people - but I think you're safe now.

*Or maybe not: being merciful doesn't seem to be high on your list of priorities, according to some of the things you have written about people, on the basis of "no smoke without fire".
Dicky ,
You've used up a lot of words there pal , now get back in your box !

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7987
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #107 on: November 18, 2019, 06:42:24 PM »
Is that an expression of actual belief in its existence now? Please tell us just why you are so worried about the stories of ancient myths which have no historical reality at all. Read the Epic of Gilgamesh, and start getting worked up about the non-existent gods there for a change (it deals with the story of a great flood, by the way).

No I don't believe the Biblical god is anymore than a human creation. However, it is still used as a means of coercing people into conversion with threats of hell-fire if they don't.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32489
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2019, 07:01:16 PM »
Is that an expression of actual belief in its existence now? Please tell us just why you are so worried about the stories of ancient myths which have no historical reality at all. Read the Epic of Gilgamesh, and start getting worked up about the non-existent gods there for a change (it deals with the story of a great flood, by the way).
Please stop talking bollocks. The assertion "the God of the Bible is evil and should mend its ways" is no more admitting its existence than the assertion " Voldemort is evil and should mend his ways" is admitting the existence of Lord Voldemort. You can discuss a literary character without having to concede it exists.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Robbie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7512
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #109 on: November 18, 2019, 07:38:57 PM »
When did anyone last do that to you? You've mentioned incidents from childhood, fair nuf but doubt there's been anything recent. I can categorically say no one has ever threatened me with hellfire and doubt they would. For one thing nobody is allowed to proselytise at work (which I think is absolutely right) nor at most schools.Faith schools are an exception but even they have to watch their language and how they go about it, they must be inclusive.

Apart from the odd JW door knocker who will go away if you say you're not interested, maybe LDS young people on a mission who I've not seen for years, it doesn't happen. There'll be carol singing and the like in shopping centres soon but lots like hearing carols even if they don't believe.

There's hardly ever anything vaguely religious on television, Songs of Praise still happens but there's nothing fundamentalist about that from what I've read and who is forced to watch? I don't have cable where there's probably more. One channel on Freeview - TBN.

The only way I can see that any of us would be targeted in such an awful way is if we sought it out from curiosity or whatever reason. I have an old (& older, long retired) friend who I see occasionally who spent years attending different churches, especially evangelical, asking questions and arguing :-). She was definitely quite wounded at times (& parted with money which she could ill afford) but she looked for it. It was almost a career but now she's into a Hindu guru & politics so the emphasis has changed.

For some people religion is a magnet even if they dislike it. I've always found it interesting but  other things interest me like art, literature, botany. I've read about different cults and experiences of ex members, never felt inclined to dip my toe in the water. My faith is quiet, private & I prefer to live it rather than bang on.

It's different over the pond but we don't live there. Britain is not a 'religious country' (despite the CofE); there are small strong religious communities amongst Jews & Muslims. The USA is generally more religious especially in some areas.

No one is gonna target you now L'Roses. You're free of that.
True Wit is Nature to Advantage drest,
          What oft was Thought, but ne’er so well Exprest

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7987
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #110 on: November 19, 2019, 11:31:30 AM »
When did anyone last do that to you? You've mentioned incidents from childhood, fair nuf but doubt there's been anything recent. I can categorically say no one has ever threatened me with hellfire and doubt they would. For one thing nobody is allowed to proselytise at work (which I think is absolutely right) nor at most schools.Faith schools are an exception but even they have to watch their language and how they go about it, they must be inclusive.

Apart from the odd JW door knocker who will go away if you say you're not interested, maybe LDS young people on a mission who I've not seen for years, it doesn't happen. There'll be carol singing and the like in shopping centres soon but lots like hearing carols even if they don't believe.

There's hardly ever anything vaguely religious on television, Songs of Praise still happens but there's nothing fundamentalist about that from what I've read and who is forced to watch? I don't have cable where there's probably more. One channel on Freeview - TBN.

The only way I can see that any of us would be targeted in such an awful way is if we sought it out from curiosity or whatever reason. I have an old (& older, long retired) friend who I see occasionally who spent years attending different churches, especially evangelical, asking questions and arguing :-). She was definitely quite wounded at times (& parted with money which she could ill afford) but she looked for it. It was almost a career but now she's into a Hindu guru & politics so the emphasis has changed.

For some people religion is a magnet even if they dislike it. I've always found it interesting but  other things interest me like art, literature, botany. I've read about different cults and experiences of ex members, never felt inclined to dip my toe in the water. My faith is quiet, private & I prefer to live it rather than bang on.

It's different over the pond but we don't live there. Britain is not a 'religious country' (despite the CofE); there are small strong religious communities amongst Jews & Muslims. The USA is generally more religious especially in some areas.

No one is gonna target you now L'Roses. You're free of that.

Robbie, the dogma of hell-fire is very much alive and well as it has ever been. >:( I have been threatened many times with hell fire on UK as well as US forum like the one of which I am currently posting. There are many extreme Christians here in the UK, especially in Pentecostal churches, who believe that if they don't get saved they will burn in hell forever and ever.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7134
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #111 on: November 19, 2019, 12:06:44 PM »
You're right, it's not begging the question, it's just wrong.

What was just and merciful about indiscriminately killing every first born son in Egypt?
It doesn't say it explicitly, but divine retribution for the Egyptians killing the Hebrew baby boys, a generation earlier?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #112 on: November 19, 2019, 12:09:31 PM »
It doesn't say it explicitly, but divine retribution for the Egyptians killing the Hebrew baby boys, a generation earlier?
What is just and merciful in murdering innocent children? You worship a thug.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #113 on: November 19, 2019, 12:13:58 PM »
Spud,

Quote
It doesn't say it explicitly, but divine retribution for the Egyptians killing the Hebrew baby boys, a generation earlier?

Does that mean if you were king for a day you'd introduce a law making the punishment for child murder the killing of the first born of the murderer?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7987
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #114 on: November 19, 2019, 12:19:30 PM »
It doesn't say it explicitly, but divine retribution for the Egyptians killing the Hebrew baby boys, a generation earlier?

Two wrongs don't make a right, if your god exists it is sick in the head. >:(
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #115 on: November 19, 2019, 01:20:59 PM »
Robbie, the dogma of hell-fire is very much alive and well as it has ever been. >:( I have been threatened many times with hell fire on UK as well as US forum like the one of which I am currently posting. There are many extreme Christians here in the UK, especially in Pentecostal churches, who believe that if they don't get saved they will burn in hell forever and ever.
   





How to over-generalise in o9ne easy lesson.
Given my experience with various Pentecostal churches, both denominational and independent fellowships, I'd say your oversimplifaction verges on the ridiculous.
I can give examples of churches which DO practice the hellfire and eternal toast fork, equally, churches which do not claim an eteranal microwave, or even a hell at all.
I can give examples of full blown YEC Pentecostals, equally, Pentecostal churches wherre microbiologists, geologists and archaeologists can worship happily.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Christine

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #116 on: November 19, 2019, 01:40:01 PM »
If you are discussing the Bible as a fictional work, then the development of the God character from sneaky, violent trickster to "just" and "merciful" (debatable, I know) is relevant.  If you think the Bible is a true reflection of a real God, however, you're stuck with the psychopathy.  The innocent suffering for others' wrongdoing is at the heart of Christianity.  Jesus died for our sins, remember?  A morally bankrupt concept if ever there was one.

If the Bible has anything to do with an omnipotent and benevolent being, why not make it wholly good and relevant regardless of time or culture?  Why, it's as if it was written by humans struggling to understand existence.  Bizarre.

(What The Buddha Taught is far more universally relevant and far less likely to lead to genocide, I think.  It's a bit of a turgid read, but I expect that's good for me.)

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7987
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #117 on: November 19, 2019, 01:40:53 PM »
   





How to over-generalise in o9ne easy lesson.
Given my experience with various Pentecostal churches, both denominational and independent fellowships, I'd say your oversimplifaction verges on the ridiculous.
I can give examples of churches which DO practice the hellfire and eternal toast fork, equally, churches which do not claim an eteranal microwave, or even a hell at all.
I can give examples of full blown YEC Pentecostals, equally, Pentecostal churches wherre microbiologists, geologists and archaeologists can worship happily.

It isn't ridiculous at all, Pentecostalists believe in the crazy dogma of being 'saved' or you will burn in hell. Flipping heck, I heard enough of that during my childhood at the Elim Church I attended, and I know for a fact nothing there has changed. Just because people who are supposed to be intelligent attend such places, doesn't mean that they haven't put logic on hold where their faith is concerned. Our AB is an intelligent guy with a doctorate, but logic and his faith are an oxymoron.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #118 on: November 19, 2019, 02:09:22 PM »
It isn't ridiculous at all, Pentecostalists believe in the crazy dogma of being 'saved' or you will burn in hell. Flipping heck, I heard enough of that during my childhood at the Elim Church I attended, and I know for a fact nothing there has changed. Just because people who are supposed to be intelligent attend such places, doesn't mean that they haven't put logic on hold where their faith is concerned. Our AB is an intelligent guy with a doctorate, but logic and his faith are an oxymoron.
   

Sorry;
You cannot lump all pentecostalists into one; nor, for that matter, all Elim congregations.
Your statement starts "Pentecostalists believe...."
No, sorry; there is no uniformity of belief within Pentecostalism.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Roses

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7987
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #119 on: November 19, 2019, 02:15:50 PM »
   

Sorry;
You cannot lump all pentecostalists into one; nor, for that matter, all Elim congregations.
Your statement starts "Pentecostalists believe...."
No, sorry; there is no uniformity of belief within Pentecostalism.

Have you ever attended a pentecostalist church? Their core message is the unpleasant, 'you must be 'saved' or else', dogma.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Anchorman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16038
  • Maranatha!
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #120 on: November 19, 2019, 02:28:28 PM »
Have you ever attended a pentecostalist church? Their core message is the unpleasant, 'you must be 'saved' or else', dogma.
   



Yep.
Attended quite a few, of various denominations. I've also served on committees with Pentecostals of several denominations at the same time; that's why I posted as I did.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4368
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #121 on: November 19, 2019, 02:49:31 PM »
Please stop talking bollocks. The assertion "the God of the Bible is evil and should mend its ways" is no more admitting its existence than the assertion " Voldemort is evil and should mend his ways" is admitting the existence of Lord Voldemort. You can discuss a literary character without having to concede it exists.

"Discuss" is the operative word here. I don't concede that repeating ad nauseam the mantram "The god of the bible is an evil psycho" constitutes discussion*. I will concede your final comment - up to a point. But since I was specifically referring to the way LR writes about these matters, this might merit a little psychological investigation (any takers?). You only have to note what she wrote about a rather fine text from Isaiah above, commenting something like "The god of the bible shouldn't be preaching, since it is wholly evil". I challenge anyone to make sense of the mental gymnastics involved here: the non-existent god of the bible, who has sometimes been written about performing decidedly evil deeds by different people over hundreds of years, is now written about by a different prophet (one of the 3 or more Isaiahs), and is now (still non-existent) exorting its followers to behave in morally unimpeachable ways. In effect, this is accusing a non-existent entity of hypocrisy . What the fuck is that all about?
And this is why your analogy with Voldemort doesn't really work: a writer such as J.K. Rowling may create a single character who is evil and hypocritical, and a good writer will always create characters full of moral ambiguities. But these characteristics are presented as the writer's own personal view of their own personal creation. In that sense, you can discuss the merits or defects of a non-existent character.
However, God as referred to by the various prophets is not like this at all, whether IT exists or doesn't exist. In fact, it doesn't require an in-depth examination of the way the prophets each refer to God to realise that many of them were deliberately reacting to and correcting the views of other prophets, so different these images of God can be seen to be. In a significant instance, it may well be that a lot of them were not aware of the Adam and Eve story at all, since they never refer to it. If they were aware of it, they obviously didn't consider it of any significance. (Richard Elliot Friedman in "Who Wrote the Bible" gives a very persuasive argument of how some prophets deliberately reacted to accounts of God's requirements and actions written by other prophets)
 
*If you want some real discussion from an atheist talking about the Old Testament, you can't do better than Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil, where he speaks admiringly of some of the OT prophets. He has far more insight in this regard than Christopher Hitchens.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 02:51:58 PM by Dicky Underpants »
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32489
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #122 on: November 19, 2019, 03:03:58 PM »
It doesn't say it explicitly, but divine retribution for the Egyptians killing the Hebrew baby boys, a generation earlier?
That would make sense in the context of the story, although it's still problematic because it is punishing one generation for the previous generation's crimes. Well, it's arbitrarily punishing some members of one generation for crimes done by some members of a previous generation. It's still not a good look for God.

The other problem is that God more or less explicitly declares his motive: it's to show the Egyptians, and Pharaoh in particular, who is the boss.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64304
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #123 on: November 19, 2019, 03:11:57 PM »
That would make sense in the context of the story, although it's still problematic because it is punishing one generation for the previous generation's crimes. Well, it's arbitrarily punishing some members of one generation for crimes done by some members of a previous generation. It's still not a good look for God.

The other problem is that God more or less explicitly declares his motive: it's to show the Egyptians, and Pharaoh in particular, who is the boss.
And of course he makes sure that Pharoah doesn't let the Hebrews go

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14561
Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #124 on: November 19, 2019, 03:16:06 PM »
*If you want some real discussion from an atheist talking about the Old Testament, you can't do better than Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil, where he speaks admiringly of some of the OT prophets. He has far more insight in this regard than Christopher Hitchens.

I know it's verging on heresy in the baby-eating circles, but I just don't find Hitchens to be up to much.  His arguments are so logically unfounded it's a wonder he's put in the same category as some of the other atheist thinkers.  Even Professor Dawkins who is not the best debater in the world actually makes his points from a first principle, admits the limitations of his own field... Hitchens, it seems to me, just makes an appeal to consequence and seems to get by on a reported charisma that I've failed to notice.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints