Author Topic: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry  (Read 104122 times)

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #275 on: December 11, 2019, 07:45:04 PM »
Substitutionary sacrifice is a fundamentally immoral concept in the first place - killing someone or something else to pay for our transgressions is immoral, a deity accepting such a sacrifice is complicit in that immorality.  This is nonsense.

O.
What about if it enables the guilty person to become a better person?
The only sacrifice that actually 'paid' for any transgressions was Jesus' one. All the others were symbolic.

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #276 on: December 11, 2019, 07:49:01 PM »
And bear in mind that Jesus, although dead, could not stay dead, because he had not sinned.

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #277 on: December 12, 2019, 08:28:02 AM »
And bear in mind that Jesus, although dead, could not stay dead, because he had not sinned.

There is no evidence to support the claim that guy resurrected. He was a mere human with faults just like the rest of us, that is clear from the gospel accounts.
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Christine

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #278 on: December 12, 2019, 08:40:35 AM »
What about coveting? Keeping up with the Joneses? Losing our temper? Doesn't everyone have the ability to do good and evil?

Yes Spud, that's right.  You were the one making the gross generalisation, not me, using the Bible as your authority.  So the Bible was wrong when it said "every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood"?  What else do you think it might have got wrong?

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #279 on: December 12, 2019, 09:57:35 AM »
Yes Spud, that's right.  You were the one making the gross generalisation, not me, using the Bible as your authority.  So the Bible was wrong when it said "every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood"?  What else do you think it might have got wrong?
Romans 7 talks about this. Paul eventually says, "So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." which seems to explain what Genesis means?

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #280 on: December 12, 2019, 09:58:37 AM »
There is no evidence to support the claim that guy resurrected. He was a mere human with faults just like the rest of us, that is clear from the gospel accounts.
Which guy? Lazarus?

jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #281 on: December 12, 2019, 10:35:29 AM »
God does not murder people.
The Bible says he does.

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"Every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood" Genesis 8:21. That justifies our death
It might justify not creating us i the first place if it were true. But it just sounds like God justifying the bloodbath.

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Isaac needed a substitute, the ram.
Why? God didn't have to tell Abraham to kill him. The ram was only needed thanks to a situation God created.

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The Israelite firstborn needed one
Or God could have decided not to kill everyone.

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everyone is born with the sinful nature.

Speak for yourself.
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jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #282 on: December 12, 2019, 10:37:55 AM »
And bear in mind that Jesus, although dead, could not stay dead, because he had not sinned.

So it wasn't a sacrifice - except maybe for a weekend. Perhaps he has plans to go to the beach.
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Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #283 on: December 12, 2019, 10:52:33 AM »
Which guy? Lazarus?

You know I am referring to that bloke, Jesus.
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Christine

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #284 on: December 12, 2019, 11:56:44 AM »
Romans 7 talks about this. Paul eventually says, "So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." which seems to explain what Genesis means?

So you actually think that the organ that pumps blood around your body has "inclinations" which are separate from what's going on in your mind? 

Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #285 on: December 12, 2019, 01:58:43 PM »
What about if it enables the guilty person to become a better person?

Sacrificing person A for person B's benefit is immoral, regardless of what the benefit to person B, notwithstanding it's difficult to imagine a scenario where subject B's moral improvement would require person A's sacrifice.

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The only sacrifice that actually 'paid' for any transgressions was Jesus' one. All the others were symbolic.

All the others were symbollically dead? How does symbolic death work, do those Egyptian parents get their children back two days later, or is that just God?

O.
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Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #286 on: December 12, 2019, 01:59:44 PM »
And bear in mind that Jesus, although dead, could not stay dead, because he had not sinned.

And that counts as a sacrifice how, then?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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ippy

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #287 on: December 12, 2019, 08:01:28 PM »
It's difficult if not impossible to expect logic or reason from such as 'Spud', when they're on one of their, usually due to indoctrination when young, god and the bible proves the bible spots.

ippy

SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #288 on: December 12, 2019, 10:40:48 PM »
Sacrificing person A for person B's benefit is immoral, regardless of what the benefit to person B, notwithstanding it's difficult to imagine a scenario where subject B's moral improvement would require person A's sacrifice.
Jesus was God incarnate, according to Christianity, so it isn't a case of God sacrificing someone else for our sins, but Of God sacrificing himself.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #289 on: December 12, 2019, 10:41:54 PM »
Jesus was God incarnate, according to Christianity, so it isn't a case of God sacrificing someone else for our sins, but Of God sacrificing himself.
for a short weekend to himself. It's all mad.

Walter

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #290 on: December 12, 2019, 11:03:57 PM »
Jesus was God incarnate, according to Christianity, so it isn't a case of God sacrificing someone else for our sins, but Of God sacrificing himself.
yeah Steve H , sounds fucking crazy doesn't it ?
You couldn't make it up !
Oh  wait .....

Stranger

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #291 on: December 13, 2019, 06:58:12 AM »
Jesus was God incarnate, according to Christianity, so it isn't a case of God sacrificing someone else for our sins, but Of God sacrificing himself.

That really doesn't do anything to make the story make any more sense, it's still bizarre, twisted, and unjust.
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Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #292 on: December 13, 2019, 08:27:54 AM »
That really doesn't do anything to make the story make any more sense, it's still bizarre, twisted, and unjust.

I agree, Jesus was no sort of god, imo.
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jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #293 on: December 13, 2019, 02:03:45 PM »
Jesus was God incarnate, according to Christianity, so it isn't a case of God sacrificing someone else for our sins, but Of God sacrificing himself.

But it wasn't a sacrifice. He was only one third dead for a couple of days.
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Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #294 on: December 15, 2019, 12:28:06 PM »
This just tells us how utterly evil your god is. As Christopher Hitchens said, it creates us sick and commands us to be well - and then punishes us for being sick. The amount of doublethink in this type of Christianity is breathtaking.

God created us "good". He set things up so that he is in authority over us, as we were in authority over the animals. If your employer leaves £5 on his desk, it isn't hard to not steal it, he already pays you enough. In Eden the situation arose where we rejected his authority (see below), so he cut us off from Eden and the tree of life. Eventually our body dies, at which point we are permanently cut off from God,  no longer able to speak to him and separated from him for ever. While we live we can still turn back to him, and submit to his authority, but we still have the tendency to rebel and need to keep turning back.

Sacrificing person A for person B's benefit is immoral, regardless of what the benefit to person B, notwithstanding it's difficult to imagine a scenario where subject B's moral improvement would require person A's sacrifice.

If person A steps forward and allows it to happen?

Quote
All the others were symbollically dead? How does symbolic death work, do those Egyptian parents get their children back two days later, or is that just God?

O.

How does the sacrifice work, is the first question. After Adam and Eve sinned, God promised that Eve's offspring would crush the head of the serpent who had deceived them. The way this works is that first God loves us so much that he sent his son, the second person of the trinity, to be born as the offspring of Eve, in order to crush the head of the serpent. With the devil gone, paradise (communion with God) will one day be restored, and God promises that by faith we can inherit this promise. However, in the process of the serpent being crushed, the Adam's offspring's heel would be struck by the serpent, picturing the death of the Son as he defeated the devil. Jesus faced the devil and overcame temptation, but in the process was struck by the devil, through the people who killed him. This is the sense in which Jesus was a sacrifice.

The animal sacrifices go back to the garden of Eden, where God had to kill animals to cover A&E and deal with their shame. I'm still not completely sure why God instructed Israel to make sacrifices, but they seem to have been an outward sign of repentance and a way in which they could be assured of God's forgiveness. They were worthless without obedience to God (Hosea 6:6, 1 Samuel 15:22, Matthew 9:13, Mark 12:33). They signified faith in God's promise to restore mankind to fellowship with him; this was the part they played in defeating the devil - they enabled the people of God to continue to worship him while the nations around worshiped false gods, thus eventually the Messiah would be born to complete the work of defeating Satan so that mankind could, at his return, be restored to 'paradise'.

God knew all this would happen. He did it to demonstrate the fullness of his nature and glory.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 12:33:55 PM by Spud »

Stranger

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #295 on: December 15, 2019, 01:00:04 PM »
God created us "good". He set things up so that he is in authority over us, as we were in authority over the animals. If your employer leaves £5 on his desk, it isn't hard to not steal it, he already pays you enough. In Eden the situation arose where we rejected his authority (see below), so he cut us off from Eden and the tree of life. Eventually our body dies, at which point we are permanently cut off from God,  no longer able to speak to him and separated from him for ever. While we live we can still turn back to him, and submit to his authority, but we still have the tendency to rebel and need to keep turning back.

It's truly astounding that Christians can tell people this without seeing the evil perversity of their god.

Firstly, people born after Eden didn't make the choice to reject god's authority and yet, as you said, we are born with a "sinful" nature - that's being created ill ("sinful") and being commanded to be well (free from "sin"). Your twisted god is punishing us for being the descendants of Adam and Eve by making us "sinful" and then threatening us with punishing us again for being the way it made us. It's perverse, unfair, and evil.

Secondly, the forbidden fruit was of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, so presumably poor old Adam and Eve didn't know good from evil before, so couldn't have known that disobeying god was bad. More perversity.

How does the sacrifice work, is the first question. After Adam and Eve sinned, God promised that Eve's offspring would crush the head of the serpent who had deceived them. The way this works is that first God loves us so much that he sent his son...

If your god loved us, it wouldn't have made things so utterly unfair and cruel in the first place.

God knew all this would happen. He did it to demonstrate the fullness of his nature and glory.

It rather demonstrates he's a sadistic bastard.
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Walter

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #296 on: December 15, 2019, 01:12:34 PM »
I'm guessing spud thinks Eastenders is a documentary !

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #297 on: December 15, 2019, 01:36:55 PM »
God created us "good". He set things up so that he is in authority over us, as we were in authority over the animals. If your employer leaves £5 on his desk, it isn't hard to not steal it, he already pays you enough. In Eden the situation arose where we rejected his authority (see below), so he cut us off from Eden and the tree of life. Eventually our body dies, at which point we are permanently cut off from God,  no longer able to speak to him and separated from him for ever. While we live we can still turn back to him, and submit to his authority, but we still have the tendency to rebel and need to keep turning back.

If person A steps forward and allows it to happen?

How does the sacrifice work, is the first question. After Adam and Eve sinned, God promised that Eve's offspring would crush the head of the serpent who had deceived them. The way this works is that first God loves us so much that he sent his son, the second person of the trinity, to be born as the offspring of Eve, in order to crush the head of the serpent. With the devil gone, paradise (communion with God) will one day be restored, and God promises that by faith we can inherit this promise. However, in the process of the serpent being crushed, the Adam's offspring's heel would be struck by the serpent, picturing the death of the Son as he defeated the devil. Jesus faced the devil and overcame temptation, but in the process was struck by the devil, through the people who killed him. This is the sense in which Jesus was a sacrifice.

The animal sacrifices go back to the garden of Eden, where God had to kill animals to cover A&E and deal with their shame. I'm still not completely sure why God instructed Israel to make sacrifices, but they seem to have been an outward sign of repentance and a way in which they could be assured of God's forgiveness. They were worthless without obedience to God (Hosea 6:6, 1 Samuel 15:22, Matthew 9:13, Mark 12:33). They signified faith in God's promise to restore mankind to fellowship with him; this was the part they played in defeating the devil - they enabled the people of God to continue to worship him while the nations around worshiped false gods, thus eventually the Messiah would be born to complete the work of defeating Satan so that mankind could, at his return, be restored to 'paradise'.

God knew all this would happen. He did it to demonstrate the fullness of his nature and glory.

Your portrayal of the god character just underlines its evil nature.
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SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #298 on: December 15, 2019, 02:08:39 PM »
It's not just conservative Christians who use the bible as an excuse for bigotry; so do some atheists, in a negative way - picking out all the nasty bits, qhoting them out of context, and ignoring all the good bits. Thank heavens no-one on here would dream of doing that!  ::)
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Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #299 on: December 15, 2019, 02:16:12 PM »
It's not just conservative Christians who use the bible as an excuse for bigotry; so do some atheists, in a negative way - picking out all the nasty bits, qhoting them out of context, and ignoring all the good bits. Thank heavens no-one on here would dream of doing that!  ::)

Give an example of the good bits.
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