Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry

[SteveH]

Just to make my position clear. I am of the opinion it should be against the law if people use their faith as an excuse for abusing other people, physically or mentally. For instance, there are extremist Christians, particularly in the US, who would have homosexuality made illegal, I have heard some would even like the death sentence for gays. Threatening children and vulnerable with the tortures of hell if they don't convert is abusive and very damaging as I know for a fact. My late grandmother literally beat religion into her children!

As I have said many times, I have no problem at all with people who are moderates where their faith is concerned, like my own children. I don't see it their way, but I certainly don't object to them having a faith.

Such laws already exist.

[Christine]

Sorry - It's up to people to read the context if I quote a verse. I can't explain everything - I'm kinda outnumbered about 10 to 1 here.

Your apologetics are unconvincing.  If you don't care about that, fair enough; it's pretty foolish of me to expect more from random message board posters than CS Lewis. 

If you are serious about the things you are writing, you need to have a good long think about right and wrong.  One day you might hear a voice in your head suggesting you do something bad and think it's right to do it because the voice is God's. 

[Spud]

Your apologetics are unconvincing.  If you don't care about that, fair enough; it's pretty foolish of me to expect more from random message board posters than CS Lewis. 

If you are serious about the things you are writing, you need to have a good long think about right and wrong.  One day you might hear a voice in your head suggesting you do something bad and think it's right to do it because the voice is God's.

God tells us what is right and wrong, see the ten commandments.

[Outrider]

God tells us what is right and wrong, see the ten commandments.

I've seen them. I've seen the expanded list. Nothing in there about slavery being bad.

Four variants of 'hey, look at me, pay me attention'.
One blatant call to extend authoritarianism to parents regardless of their merits.
One overly simplistic absolutism (can I kill in self defence?).
Three reasonable, of themselves, declaration (no stealing, no adultery, no false witness) although lacking in flexibility perhaps (are white lies acceptable? Is flattery lying? Is theft acceptable if I'm stealing food or medicine for the starving or ill?)
Then the implicit misogyny of not coveting your neighbour's wife, ox, ass, field, servants or house...

Nothing in there about rape being a problem. Nothing in there about slavery being a problem.

Elsewhere in the same work - shellfish are bad, haircuts are bad, eating pork is bad, knowledge is bad, slavery is fine, the punishment for being raped is to be married to the rapist...

O.

[Roses]

God tells us what is right and wrong, see the ten commandments.

The Biblical god character doesn't appear to understand the meaning of right and wrong, if the deeds attributed to it have any veracity.

[ippy]

God tells us what is right and wrong, see the ten commandments.

And the evidence for this, 'god tells us etc', of yours Spud?

Regards, ippy.

[Udayana]

God tells us what is right and wrong, see the ten commandments.

They form a set of rules but don't come with a discussion of ethics.

[Christine]

God tells us what is right and wrong, see the ten commandments.

Here you seem to be suggesting that “God” wrote the Bible?  Or possibly dictated it to human scribes?  Could you tell me whether I’ve interpreted that sentence correctly, in context, please?
 
Suggesting that the ten commandments are the last word in ethics is childish, as demonstrated by Outrider. 

Implicit in your one-liner is that thinking for yourself is unnecessary.  See my previous post.

As for being outnumbered, perhaps you could ask your “God” to direct more of his followers here to help you out?  There used to be other religious apologists posting here, but they seem to have given up, despite the great commission from Jesus they’re supposed to have to save us non-believers.

[Spud]

God wrote the ten commandments, yes. Jesus' words on them are the last word. We should seek to give, rather than simply seeking not to steal. We should seek to love, not simply avoid breaking each of them.
I'm quite happy to be outnumbered - I have about six bibles here, and several thousand angels. 

[Gordon]

God wrote the ten commandments, yes. Jesus' words on them are the last word. We should seek to give, rather than simply seeking not to steal. We should seek to love, not simply avoid breaking each of them.
I'm quite happy to be outnumbered - I have about six bibles here, and several thousand angels. 

How many pins does that involve?

[BeRational]

God wrote the ten commandments, yes. Jesus' words on them are the last word. We should seek to give, rather than simply seeking not to steal. We should seek to love, not simply avoid breaking each of them.
I'm quite happy to be outnumbered - I have about six bibles here, and several thousand angels. 

Do you keep slaves as you must agree with your God that slavery is fine?

[ippy]

God wrote the ten commandments, yes. Jesus' words on them are the last word. We should seek to give, rather than simply seeking not to steal. We should seek to love, not simply avoid breaking each of them.
I'm quite happy to be outnumbered - I have about six bibles here, and several thousand angels. 

First we had:

God tells us what is right and wrong, see the ten commandments.

And the evidence for this, 'god tells us etc', of yours Spud?

And now it's 'god wrote the commandments', when will you be supplying any form of conformation or if you like viable evidence in support of this assertion Spud?

I must try telling my bank about the several million pounds I put into my account last week, I wonder what's the first thing they'll ask when I try to draw out one of the first of the millions I put there?

Regards, ippy.

[Roses]

God wrote the ten commandments, yes. Jesus' words on them are the last word. We should seek to give, rather than simply seeking not to steal. We should seek to love, not simply avoid breaking each of them.
I'm quite happy to be outnumbered - I have about six bibles here, and several thousand angels. 

You only believe god wrote the commandments, that is not a fact. There is no evidence god exists, let alone contributed to the documents which make up the Bible.

[Outrider]

God wrote the ten commandments, yes.

Do they not strike you as somewhat simplistic for a set of rules to define morality for all time?  Even if we accept the first four, the other six regarding human interaction lack any sort of nuance or contextual variation - it might be that you presume they are guidance rather than hard and fast absolutes, but certainly not all believers see it that way, and that's eminently foreseeable.

Jesus' words on them are the last word.

That depends on who you ask, I think - there's a few people who think Mohammed some input, and a few more that hold to Joseph Smith and others... 

We should seek to give, rather than simply seeking not to steal. We should seek to love, not simply avoid breaking each of them.

Nice sentiments we could all do well to hold to.

I'm quite happy to be outnumbered - I have about six bibles here, and several thousand angels. 

Well, I hope the worst that happens to you for your beliefs is that you're outnumbered here!

O.

[ippy]

Do they not strike you as somewhat simplistic for a set of rules to define morality for all time?  Even if we accept the first four, the other six regarding human interaction lack any sort of nuance or contextual variation - it might be that you presume they are guidance rather than hard and fast absolutes, but certainly not all believers see it that way, and that's eminently foreseeable.

That depends on who you ask, I think - there's a few people who think Mohammed some input, and a few more that hold to Joseph Smith and others... 

Nice sentiments we could all do well to hold to.

Well, I hope the worst that happens to you for your beliefs is that you're outnumbered here!

O.

I'll go with this post especially the last two lines.

ippy.

[Spud]

Do you keep slaves as you must agree with your God that slavery is fine?

I had a hamster which escaped three times, but he died last year and now I have an orchid which has flowered so many times I think it's trying to escape from the pot.

[Roses]

I had a hamster which escaped three times, but he died last year and now I have an orchid which has flowered so many times I think it's trying to escape from the pot.

What does your hamster and orchid have to do with this topic?

[Spud]

First we had:

God tells us what is right and wrong, see the ten commandments.

And the evidence for this, 'god tells us etc', of yours Spud?

And now it's 'god wrote the commandments', when will you be supplying any form of conformation or if you like viable evidence in support of this assertion Spud?

I must try telling my bank about the several million pounds I put into my account last week, I wonder what's the first thing they'll ask when I try to draw out one of the first of the millions I put there?

Regards, ippy.

I should think, "do you require more privacy while we talk about this?"
Exodus 31:18, 32:19 are the verses you want. The evidence you want is at the foot of mount Sinai but - a heads up - it's broken.

[Roses]

I should think, "do you require more privacy while we talk about this?"
Exodus 31:18, 32:19 are the verses you want. The evidence you want is at the foot of mount Sinai but - a heads up - it's broken.

The Bible is no sort of evidence whatsoever.

[Christine]

What does your hamster and orchid have to do with this topic?

I can think of several answers: nothing, I've given up; I believe people kept as slaves can be equated to rodents and plants; I've now decided the words I type mean exactly what I want them to mean in my head and if you don't understand them, tough, burn in hell, sinner, bwhahaha.  Could there be another answer?  We may never know.

Exodus 31:18, 32:19 are the verses you want. The evidence you want is at the foot of mount Sinai but - a heads up - it's broken.

Verses in the Bible are evidence of what's in the Bible and not much else.  Why so coy about what the evidence at the foot of Mount Sinai is, Spud?  You've got time to tell us about your hamster but not the actual evidence that your beliefs are probably true?  I'm starting to think you don't care about saving me.

[ProfessorDavey]

Verses in the Bible are evidence of what's in the Bible and not much else.

Indeed 

Why so coy about what the evidence at the foot of Mount Sinai is, Spud?

Why indeed. And even were there to be a pristine tablet with the 10 commandments written on it, that could be objectively confirmed to be from the correct date, that provides exactly zero evidence that the god wrote those commandments (even if god exists). All it tells us is that someone wrote something on a tablet of stone - big deal.

[ippy]

I should think, "do you require more privacy while we talk about this?"
Exodus 31:18, 32:19 are the verses you want. The evidence you want is at the foot of mount Sinai but - a heads up - it's broken.

Why would anyone take measure from an unreliable source of information that's full of magic, the mystic and superstition Spud?

The evidence if it points to anything it points to a book written by man, primitive man at that.

It really beats me why otherwise intelligent people such as yourself Spud, bother your head with the nonsense of it, I can understand to a limited amount the social side as some sort of theme based regular get together but to actually really believe in it and take it seriously?   

Regards, ippy.

[Christine]

... even were there to be a pristine tablet with the 10 commandments written on it, that could be objectively confirmed to be from the correct date, that provides exactly zero evidence that the god wrote those commandments (even if god exists). All it tells us is that someone wrote something on a tablet of stone - big deal.

I read a book by Will Self some time ago called The Book of Dave.  It wasn't easy reading, unsurprisingly, but worth it, I felt.  One of the themes was the stupidity of relying on an 'authority' rather than thinking things through for yourself.  The first and most heinous 'sin' in the Adam and Eve myth is disobedience of an authority.  That authority is plainly shown to be dishonest and to not have the best interests of his playthings at heart - in the myth! - but humans should still be punished for disobeying it.

Stephen Fry is currently reading me his Mythos and I have to say, the Greeks came up with a mythology that accounts for the conditions humans find themselves in much better than Christianity does.  It's a great pity, but not that much of a shock, that a Roman emperor championed an authoritarian religion which values unquestioning obedience.  It's a shame, in my opinion, that he wasn't keener on Dionysus.

[Nearly Sane]

I read a book by Will Self some time ago called The Book of Dave.  It wasn't easy reading, unsurprisingly, but worth it, I felt.  One of the themes was the stupidity of relying on an 'authority' rather than thinking things through for yourself.  The first and most heinous 'sin' in the Adam and Eve myth is disobedience of an authority.  That authority is plainly shown to be dishonest and to not have the best interests of his playthings at heart - in the myth! - but humans should still be punished for disobeying it.

Stephen Fry is currently reading me his Mythos and I have to say, the Greeks came up with a mythology that accounts for the conditions humans find themselves in much better than Christianity does.  It's a great pity, but not that much of a shock, that a Roman emperor championed an authoritarian religion which values unquestioning obedience.  It's a shame, in my opinion, that he wasn't keener on Dionysus.

Roman emperors managed to be authoritarian long before Christianity was adopted, and Christianity is much more complex than 'an authoritarian religion'. Indeed it's arguable that it was the use of the religion by the Roman state that creates the authoritarian strain of it that you are referring to.

[Christine]

Roman emperors managed to be authoritarian long before Christianity was adopted, and Christianity is much more complex than 'an authoritarian religion'. Indeed it's arguable that it was the use of the religion by the Roman state that creates the authoritarian strain of it that you are referring to.

The reason I didn’t think it shocking that a Roman emperor chose an authoritarian religion is because Roman emperors were notoriously authoritarian.

I agree that it would have been possible to focus the developing religion on its relatively benign aspects, love and charity and all that, but that’s not what happened, is it?  I’m having a conversation with someone who thinks “God” actually wrote the 10 commandments, not someone who’s contemplated the history of some ancient myths and drawn their own conclusions about how and why they were eventually adopted by the superpower of the time. 

I don’t think I’m wrong about the main message of the A&E story, unless my understanding of what it says has been compromised by dodgy translations.  Obey, do not question, do not test, do not listen to any input other than God’s* and avoid, as far as possible, drawing logical conclusions from evidence. 

A religious text that can be used by people such as the Westboro Baptists to promote hatred, can’t be redeemed by having some nice bits in it.  Nice people will use the nice bits.  If there were no nasty bits, the nasty people wouldn’t have a hook to hang their deranged hatred on.

I know that some people (e.g. people who call themselves Buddhists and then burn other people out of their homes) will do bad things regardless, but why would a good and powerful being provide them with excuses? 

*Of course, if he’s not manifesting himself these days, you can take it as read he’s talking directly into priests’ and/or believers’ brains (or should that be hearts?)