Author Topic: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry  (Read 103467 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #525 on: February 07, 2020, 06:30:18 PM »
So Spud, any thoughts yet on whether you'd advocate the rules of this inerrant and all good god of yours replacing the laws we currently have, thereby legalising the buying and selling of people, the correct amount of physical pain that should be inflicted on miscreants etc?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #526 on: February 07, 2020, 07:53:52 PM »
No, because the word 'if' is ambiguous as regards rightness or wrongness.
Nope the 'if' refers to alternative views on the appropriateness of certain groups eating sacred offering, not on the appropriateness of owning a slave.

So it is the equivalent of saying to supporters driving to a football match:

'Drivers arriving from the M1 south should access the A41 route. But if you are driving from the north you should use the A38.'

That doesn't that there is any argument over the appropriateness of arriving from the north, but a view on the appropriate route near to the stadium.

There is no ambiguity here - priest can buy a slave with money, and if so those slaves are able to eat the sacred offering.

jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #527 on: February 07, 2020, 08:04:51 PM »
No, because the word 'if' is ambiguous as regards rightness or wrongness.
If it did justify it, then Dt 21:15 which similarly says 'if a man has two wives...' indicates that having two wives is justified.

This is ridiculous. If slavery wasn't condoned, if priests were not allowed to buy people, that sentence would not be there at all because the possibility that a priest would have slaves to eat his sacred food would not even arise.
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Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #528 on: February 07, 2020, 08:06:48 PM »
Sorry for the delayed response blue.
The question in hand is, was bondservice justified in the promised land?

The context is that Abraham's descendants were promised this land, and they would worship the true God there. They were to be separated from the influences of the nations around them and not worship their false gods.

Consequently, if you were a bondservant in Israel you were blessed, because you were free to worship God.

jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #529 on: February 07, 2020, 08:20:15 PM »
Sorry for the delayed response blue.
The question in hand is, was bondservice justified in the promised land?
No it isn't. The question is "does the Bible condone slavery?"

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The context is that Abraham's descendants were promised this land, and they would worship the true God there. They were to be separated from the influences of the nations around them and not worship their false gods.
And they acquired that land (at least, according the the Bible) by genociding the existing inhabitants or taking them into slavery. God helped them in that endeavour.

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Consequently, if you were a bondservant in Israel you were blessed, because you were free to worship God.

You're ignoring the foreigners who were enslaved and presumably made to worship what they thought of as a false god. Look at it this way. Suppose you were somehow captured by ISIS and they took you into slavery (or bonded service if you prefer) would you feel blessed if they allowed you to worship the god of Islam?


« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 04:19:05 PM by jeremyp »
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Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #530 on: February 08, 2020, 05:06:30 AM »
Isis thought God wanted them to make a caliphate. They seem to have sort of copied the Israelites. But God never told them to do this.
Canaan, Noah's grandson, was cursed for his father's sin. God had already blessed Ham after they came out of the ark, so Ham could not be cursed (just as God could not curse Adam as he had already blessed him, so had to curse the ground).
Canaan would become a servant to his brothers. This has I think been misinterpreted to mean that all Ham's descendents were under this curse. Hence the Europeans enslaving Africans.
God gave the Canaanites 400 years and then drove them out of their land, which he gave to Israel. This is why the Canaanites became slaves.
When Israel turned to idols the same happened to them, they were enslaved by the Babylonians.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #531 on: February 08, 2020, 11:43:36 AM »
Spud,

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Sorry for the delayed response blue.

No problem.

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The question in hand is, was bondservice justified in the promised land?

The context is that Abraham's descendants were promised this land, and they would worship the true God there. They were to be separated from the influences of the nations around them and not worship their false gods.

Consequently, if you were a bondservant in Israel you were blessed, because you were free to worship God.

You're quite the casuist, and that's not the question in hand at all. The question in hand is: if you think there's a god, that this good is all good and inerrant, and that this god's rules are accurately written in some books then would you advocate the replacement of our legislation with those rules, including the buying and selling of people. No matter how you might want to label or justify these rules, would you prefer them to the laws we have in which people cannot be bought and sold as commercial transactions?
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jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #532 on: February 08, 2020, 04:21:02 PM »
I'm just wondering whether the reason why foreign bondservants became permanent possessions in contrast with Hebrew servants who were eventually freed, is to do with the rights of inheritance.


No.

It's because they were slaves.
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jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #533 on: February 08, 2020, 04:25:14 PM »
Isis thought God wanted them to make a caliphate.
That wasn't the point. The point was to try to make you think how you would feel if you were put in the position of one of the foreigners that the Hebrews enslaved and then "allowed" to worship a god they believed to be false.

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They seem to have sort of copied the Israelites. But God never told them to do this.
And there's no reason to believe that God told the Israelites to do what the Bible says they did.

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Canaan, Noah's grandson, was cursed for his father's sin.
Doesn't that strike you as lacking in justice?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #534 on: February 08, 2020, 04:30:54 PM »
No.

It's because they were slaves.

And spud's god is a racist slavery supporter

ippy

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #535 on: February 09, 2020, 06:59:55 AM »
I note the absence of anything even resembling a reply from Spud to the last few posts?

ippy

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #536 on: February 09, 2020, 11:34:21 AM »
Nope the 'if' refers to alternative views on the appropriateness of certain groups eating sacred offering, not on the appropriateness of owning a slave.

So it is the equivalent of saying to supporters driving to a football match:

'Drivers arriving from the M1 south should access the A41 route. But if you are driving from the north you should use the A38.'

That doesn't that there is any argument over the appropriateness of arriving from the north, but a view on the appropriate route near to the stadium.

There is no ambiguity here - priest can buy a slave with money, and if so those slaves are able to eat the sacred offering.
Even so, divorce, polygamy, slavery are not part of God's intended plan for us and so the examples where they are mentioned serve to mitigate the problems they cause.

ippy

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #537 on: February 09, 2020, 01:35:28 PM »
Even so, divorce, polygamy, slavery are not part of God's intended plan for us and so the examples where they are mentioned serve to mitigate the problems they cause.

How can you or anyone else possibly know whatever it is you chose to refer to as 'gods intended plan'?

Why don't you come back to this thread Spud, when you can find something/anything to back up these
kinds of assertion this latest assertion of yours for an example?

Handing out this kind of theobabble only encourages well deserved derision.

ippy

jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #538 on: February 09, 2020, 01:37:28 PM »
I note the absence of anything even resembling a reply from Spud to the last few posts?

ippy

I'll give him credit for at least trying to answer his opponents, unlike some forum members I won't mention but whose name is an anagram of pipy
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jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #539 on: February 09, 2020, 01:41:57 PM »
Even so, divorce, polygamy, slavery are not part of God's intended plan for us and so the examples where they are mentioned serve to mitigate the problems they cause.

I'll give you divorce, (although I would argue that divorce is better than a marriage in which the parties hate each other), but polygamy and slavery are condoned at various parts of the Bible. Why didn't God drop a hint to Abraham that he was only allowed one wife? And no slave girls?
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ippy

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #540 on: February 09, 2020, 01:49:20 PM »
I'll give him credit for at least trying to answer his opponents, unlike some forum members I won't mention but whose name is an anagram of pipy

But there's no reason or logic in his last post, regardless of whatever.

ippy

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #541 on: February 09, 2020, 04:42:48 PM »
I'll give you divorce, (although I would argue that divorce is better than a marriage in which the parties hate each other), but polygamy and slavery are condoned at various parts of the Bible. Why didn't God drop a hint to Abraham that he was only allowed one wife? And no slave girls?

Polygamy is condoned, in the sense that it is forgiven. Yet the narrative makes it clear that it is not good. For a start, Genesis 2 says 'wife' singular. The first person to have two wives was Lamech (Gen 4), a murderer. Abraham gets into a tight place with Hagar. Jacob ends up with 2 wives after he is tricked by his uncle, but he seems to deserve that having tricking his father to get his father's blessing. Rachel and Leah argue a lot and give Jacob grief.

People were created free (but under God's authority): it is not until Genesis 9 that we find an explicit reference to servitude. Noah prophecies that Canaan's descendants will end up in bondage. This seems to have been fulfilled in the Gibeonites (Joshua 9). Thus servitude is not part of God's good creation. But like polygamy and divorce, it's a fact of life in the OT, and sometimes beneficial in that it helped people survive.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 07:15:19 PM by Spud »

ippy

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #542 on: February 09, 2020, 05:06:52 PM »
Polygamy is condoned, in the sense that it is forgiven. Yet the narrative makes it clear that it is not good. For a start, Genesis 2 says 'wife' singular. The first person to have two wives was Cain, after he murdered Abel. Abraham gets into a tight place with Hagar. Jacob ends up with 2 wives after he is tricked by his uncle, but he seems to deserve that having tricking his father to get his father's blessing. Rachel and Leah argue a lot and give Jacob grief.

People were created free (but under God's authority): it is not until Genesis 9 that we find an explicit reference to servitude. Noah prophecies that Canaan's descendants will end up in bondage. This seems to have been fulfilled in the Gibeonites (Joshua 9). Thus servitude is not part of God's good creation. But like polygamy and divorce, it's a fact of life in the OT, and sometimes beneficial in that it helped people survive.

God's authority? Cum on Spud!

SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #543 on: February 09, 2020, 09:18:57 PM »
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 09:22:29 PM by Oliphant Chuckerbutty »
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Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #544 on: February 10, 2020, 02:38:27 PM »
The full paragraph:Leviticus 22:10-13
IIRCC the priest's food came to him through the offerings brought to the temple. So the servants in his household, being allowed to eat the same food, were equal in that respect to the rest of the family.

But it also mentions the situation where his daughter might return home having been married and is now divorced. Obviously if God created marriage to be for life, here is a provision necessary because of mankind's fallen condition, for when things go wrong in marriage. Perhaps this is the case for bondservants. All the examples of slavery in the Bible result from sin: Canaan's descendants became slaves as a result of his father's (Ham's) sin after the flood. Joseph was sold as a slave as a result of his brothers' sin. Moses' approach was to give just punishments for sin, and mitigate its effects. Rather than not allow people to divorce/own servants, he was concerned to make sure the people involved were not oppressed.

Which still speaks out against divorce explicitly, but doesn't speak out about the INHERENTLY IMMORAL PRACTICE OF SLAVERY.  It doesn't matter that they might have been encouraged to treat their slaves better than some other people might have been doing at the same time, it matters that your god apparently wasn't worried enough about slavery to mention that it was a bad thing in and of itself, but inspired entire verses about haircuts, bacon and shellfish.

O.
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ippy

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Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #546 on: February 10, 2020, 07:44:53 PM »
Which still speaks out against divorce explicitly, but doesn't speak out about the INHERENTLY IMMORAL PRACTICE OF SLAVERY.  It doesn't matter that they might have been encouraged to treat their slaves better than some other people might have been doing at the same time, it matters that your god apparently wasn't worried enough about slavery to mention that it was a bad thing in and of itself, but inspired entire verses about haircuts, bacon and shellfish.

O.

Again, we need to be careful when we accuse God of condoning slavery. If you read Genesis carefully, you'll see that during the famine, Jacob and sons, along with the Egyptian population, gave and sold (respectively) themselves to Pharaoh as his lifelong servants. When Jacob's descendants later became prosperous, the Egyptians became jealous and the Pharaoh made them slaves by forcing them to work themselves to death. Thus later in the OT, Egypt is remembered as the 'house of bondage', where they were oppressed servants, or slaves as we call them.

Note that (1) it was this slavery that God rescued Israel from, and (2) that there is a difference between lifelong service caused in that instance by famine, and slavery.

The NT speaks out against divorce,yes. What about the old testament?

There seem to be two ways of looking at lifelong servants: one is that it's a bit like polygamy: it was practiced and not prohibited, but context shows it not to be the ideal. The other is that it is permitted as a good thing, a way of mitigating the effect of sin which led to these situations, which is what the two passages Lev 25:44-46 and Deut 20:10-11 do seem to suggest. Only those two, mind: all other passages are either ambiguous or promote the wellbeing of the lifelong servant.

And I want to emphasize that I do not believe slavery is condoned a single time in the Bible, and I totally agree that the practice is immoral. The KJV is the most accurate paper version of the Bible I have and it doesn't use the word slave in the OT, but 'bondservant'. But I think even this is inaccurate, because bondage is what happened to Israel in Egypt, where they were oppressed. Oppression is banned for Israel.

The word 'slave' originated from the practice of kidnapping and selling people, which is a capital offence in the Bible. Like polygamy, where laws were in place to make sure that an unloved wife was not oppressed (Deut 21:10-17), a lifelong servant was treated equally, as your passage with the Levite priest's servant being allowed to share his food shows. Similarly, a city that surrenders being made to pay tribute to their conqueror but allowed to continue living where they were, as the KJV of Dt 20:10-11 implies, is not slavery (oppression) but the natural outcome of war.

The only reason the buying of servants was permitted for Israel was that they had the correct laws in place to make sure the servant was not oppressed and turned into a slave. Thus it follows that for the rest of the world, buying servants cannot be allowed.

Since, though, those two verses do permit the exchange of silver for servants, it is clear that at that time and place only, it was justifiable to do so.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 08:11:50 PM by Spud »

Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #547 on: February 10, 2020, 09:33:11 PM »
Again, we need to be careful when we accuse God of condoning slavery.

Not really.  He apparently went out of his way to explain exactly how objectionable he found practices such as getting the corners of the beard shaved off, eating pork, planting mixed crops, wearing multiple cloths, coveting asses, stealing, murdering (sometimes)... and yet not once is there a clear condemnation of the institution of slavery which was rife.  There are no verses I'm aware of which say 'If you're going to eat pork, despite it being bad, here's how you should cook it...', so the we can't even presume that the bits where he brushes over the purchasing of people is just a pragmatic caveat to the economic realities.

Slavery, surely, if you're going to be talking about moral and immoral practices, should come higher on the list of priorities than whether or not a woman is a virgin when she gets married?

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If you read Genesis carefully, you'll see that during the famine, Jacob and sons, along with the Egyptian population, gave and sold (respectively) themselves to Pharaoh as his lifelong servants. When Jacob's descendants later became prosperous, the Egyptians became jealous and the Pharaoh made them slaves by forcing them to work themselves to death. Thus later in the OT, Egypt is remembered as the 'house of bondage', where they were oppressed servants, or slaves as we call them.

But in the tale the problematic element is where they were worked to death - the fact that they were in a situation where it was possible for them to be 'bought' wasn't flagged as at all an issue.

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Note that (1) it was this slavery that God rescued Israel from, and (2) that there is a difference between lifelong service caused in that instance by famine, and slavery.

Note (1) - allegedly!
Note (2) - there are differences of degree, but not of quality.  They are still 'owned' people, and that's wrong.

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The NT speaks out against divorce,yes. What about the old testament?

I'm aware that there are some interpretations of the Biblical institution of marriage that suggest that a woman was effectively being sold to her husband by her father, but that seems to be a separate argument and a (barely) more nuanced discussion.

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There seem to be two ways of looking at lifelong servants: one is that it's a bit like polygamy: it was practiced and not prohibited, but context shows it not to be the ideal. The other is that it is permitted as a good thing, a way of mitigating the effect of sin which led to these situations, which is what the two passages Lev 25:44-46 and Deut 20:10-11 do seem to suggest. Only those two, mind: all other passages are either ambiguous or promote the wellbeing of the lifelong servant.

So, as I said, nothing that actually points out that this is a fundamentally evil practice - yet so much weight is given to, say, homosexuality.

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And I want to emphasize that I do not believe slavery is condoned a single time in the Bible, and I totally agree that the practice is immoral.

The two situations you cited in the previous paragraph are condoning the practice, and not just by the lack of any explicit statement that slavery isn't acceptable, but the idea that it's permissible as a way of mitigating other sins.  What sin is worse than taking slaves?

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The KJV is the most accurate paper version of the Bible I have and it doesn't use the word slave in the OT, but 'bondservant'.

A rose by any other name...

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But I think even this is inaccurate, because bondage is what happened to Israel in Egypt, where they were oppressed. Oppression is banned for Israel.

But it's fine for everyone else?  To continue the Shakespearian bent 'If you prick us do we not bleed?'

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The word 'slave' originated from the practice of kidnapping and selling people, which is a capital offence in the Bible.

Except if they're taken during a victorious military conquest, because then it's fine.

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Like polygamy, where laws were in place to make sure that an unloved wife was not oppressed (Deut 21:10-17), a lifelong servant was treated equally, as your passage with the Levite priest's servant being allowed to share his food shows. Similarly, a city that surrenders being made to pay tribute to their conqueror but allowed to continue living where they were, as the KJV of Dt 20:10-11 implies, is not slavery (oppression) but the natural outcome of war.

You keep making this parallel with polygamy, and I think - do correct me if I'm wrong, this is somewhat an inference - you seem to put them on a par.  Slavery is intrinsically problematic; polygamy isn't.  There are practical issues with polygamy in many (possibly even most) societies with a noticable difference in social status between the sexes, but that's a practical and situational issue, it's not intrinsic to polygamy.

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The only reason the buying of servants was permitted for Israel was that they had the correct laws in place to make sure the servant was not oppressed and turned into a slave.

If you buy people, they're slaves. If you buy them and call them servants, that's slavery with spin.  The 'correct law' is 'You're not allowed to buy people, people aren't commodities'.

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Thus it follows that for the rest of the world, buying servants cannot be allowed.

So why so expressly point out that eating shellfish was an abomination, but skirt around slavery?

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Since, though, those two verses do permit the exchange of silver for servants, it is clear that at that time and place only, it was justifiable to do so.

Which, presumably, has to constitute at least a situational condoning of slavery?

O.
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SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #548 on: February 10, 2020, 10:35:45 PM »
Look up the slang use.
I'm aware of the slang use, as the linked photo makes clear, I'd've thought.
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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #549 on: February 11, 2020, 01:16:43 PM »
Isis thought God wanted them to make a caliphate. They seem to have sort of copied the Israelites. But God never told them to do this.
Canaan, Noah's grandson, was cursed for his father's sin. God had already blessed Ham after they came out of the ark, so Ham could not be cursed (just as God could not curse Adam as he had already blessed him, so had to curse the ground).
Canaan would become a servant to his brothers. This has I think been misinterpreted to mean that all Ham's descendents were under this curse. Hence the Europeans enslaving Africans.
God gave the Canaanites 400 years and then drove them out of their land, which he gave to Israel. This is why the Canaanites became slaves.
When Israel turned to idols the same happened to them, they were enslaved by the Babylonians.

How do you know your God never told ISIS to do what they did?  Perhaps he sent some revelatory clarification to them recently, directly into their thoughts, you know, like how he tells Christians where their car keys are?

And as for Canaan, you refer to his father Ham's "sin" that caused Noah to issue the curse but you don't say what it was.  Wasn't it because the poor chap had the misfortune to see his father naked, drunk and passed out in his tent?  Can you explain how this was a "sin" and how it justified cursing people who didn't even DO it?

And as for things not being part of your God's plan, if that's the case, why did they happen?  Why are they still happening?  One bite of an apple and your God is powerless to stop some humans behaving badly towards other humans?  All he had to say was "treat each other with respect and kindness and no mealy mouthed excuses" wasn't it?  Perhaps pop down to walk among us (again) and remind us how omnipotent and benevolent he is once in a while?