Author Topic: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry  (Read 103239 times)

Stranger

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #700 on: April 15, 2020, 08:09:10 AM »
Pain in general is useful, as it tells us something is wrong. The pain of childbirth is a reminder, like the pain of thorns and thistles.
https://www.gotquestions.org/pain-in-childbirth.html

Saying we are not responsible for doing wrong is like a child who is punished telling his parents if they knew he would be naughty they shouldn't have had him.

You're still making excuses for the inexcusable. Your god is morally repugnant. The whole Adam and Eve story exemplifies this because (at least in many versions of Christianity) we all become sinners because of their actions, rather than our own, and then face punishment for being the way this god made us. Regardless, as I said before, if nobody manages to live up to god's standard, then that isn't a choice, it's a design flaw. Created sick and commanded to be well (Christopher Hitchens?).
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #701 on: April 15, 2020, 10:19:55 AM »
A couple of points:

1   After killing his brother, Cain went with his wife to the Land of Nod.  Where the hell did his wife come from?

2   Sassy claims to be a christian and lauds the Ten Commandments.  Didn't the founder of her religion say that there are only two commandments?

     Love the Lord thy God; and thy neighbour as thyself?
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Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #702 on: April 15, 2020, 10:50:52 AM »
The reason given is that shellfish don't have fins or scales, so they are more likely to pick up some disease and transmit it to a person - like a vulture, which is also in the list. That's how I understand it anyway. Because of this, God said, 'they shall be unclean for you'. This wording points to the understanding that their prohibition was for symbolic reasons. Like how a male old lamb had to be unblemished to be acceptable for sacrifice.

The specific claims are that various things are 'detestable' or 'ceremonially unclean' - in the absence of a germ theory of disease it's possible that this is attempting to avoid food that was difficult to sanitise at the time, but given that the passage is one in line of things that are 'ceremonially unclean', such as particular haircuts, sexual practices and farming techniques it's a little difficult to claim that it's about avoiding food poisoning.  It's about establishing ritual rules to readily identify an in-group and to therefore justify 'othering' the out-group making them fair game for pretty much anything - after all, they're 'ceremonially unclean'...

O.
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Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #703 on: April 15, 2020, 10:53:06 AM »
Do you mean that he is unjust and unfair because he doesn't let us eat from the tree of life? Seems a reasonable consequence to me.

I think it was the injustice of punishing someone for disobedience when they had no knowledge of good and evil (i.e. that disobedience might, under some circumstances, be morally wrong) until after they'd perpetrated the act.

The act of punishing someone else for you failing to implement adequate safeguards.

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Enki

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #704 on: April 15, 2020, 12:18:44 PM »
People in the world are dying and you can only insult others beliefs... The bigots it appears are right here on this thread. Those who insult the Christian God do make themselves as bad as any other bigot. I bet you all feel proud of yourselves. Tell me how does it feel to know you are as bad as any other bigot. Even they believe their beliefs given them right to insult others. Nah you cannot blame God for mans own ugly characteristics.

Your God has no significance for me, hence I cannot blame Him for anything because of the simple fact that I have no belief in His existence. However, I see people like you and Spud, who do have a belief in this God, blaming human beings for the pain and suffering in this world and selecting only the good things to show that this is a just and benevolent God. The fact is that according to your beliefs God created human beings and gave them free will, yet, it seems, He does not take ultimate responsibility for their actions. Instead, because of some mythological story(Adam and Eve) He curses both them and their offspring and we are then all labelled sinners from then on.

I have a very dear friend, who in her youth had an illegitimate baby at a time when society was much more Christian orientated and condemned such occurrences. Although I put this on the Message board some years ago, let me tell you her story in her own words:

Quote
At the age of eighteen I was unmarried and pregnant. This was in the early sixties.  It was considered by society, at that time, that to be pregnant and unmarried was unacceptable. So my only option was a mother and baby home resulting in adoption.  The home that was chosen for me was run by a group of catholic nuns.
The home consisted of two large Victorian houses, one to house girls until six weeks pre birth. The last six weeks of pregnancy, birth and time spent waiting for the adoption to be arranged, was spent in the adjoining house. 
We had to pay our board and lodgings.  Except that each week our personal finances were reviewed by the nuns and if they considered we had too much money, they took it. I hid mine to avoid this!
Food was often inadequate, yet if questioned the amounts changed temporarily.
We were allowed little in respect of personal items.
We were not allowed post, we had to use the local Post office.
Friendships were discouraged and girls were split up when these became obvious.
We had little freedom, times allowed out were rigid with one late pass per month til 10pm.
No telephone, no family visitors allowed.
Little pre or post natal care.
No discussion or advice  whatsoever about having a baby.
No understanding shown about the situation we were in.
Little or no conversation with nuns.
We worked constantly doing household tasks.
No entertainment, no tv, radio, music.
We had to attend the 'in house church' every day, being repeatedly told about the error of our ways. Constantly riminded that we had no one to blame but ourselves. We had to pray to God for forgiveness or we would go to hell.
No information about the actual adoption, the nuns were doing us a favour in removing the baby, giving it a chance for a decent life!
Any girl wanting to keep their baby was put under huge pressure to change their mind.  Most did.
We felt that this pressure indicated that the babies were being sold, but I know of no evidence for this!
The whole experience was one of being in a prison with hard cold people who cared nothing for us or the babies.
Girls were not allowed to help each other when a birth was imminent.We were locked out of the delivery room.
I have no memory of the birth, except a dark room and a strange smell.  I cannot remember having a baby.
The nuns were cold.  They did not appear to care about us at all. Their regime had to be followed at all costs and it was an arduous one.
We were not allowed to care for our babies, the nursery being locked after feeds so that a mother could not attend to a crying baby.  Consequently the house was always full of the sound of screaming babies.
I was lucky in some respects.  My baby had a low birth weight, so I had to do an extra feed at 2am.  I would spend most of the night nursing my baby going to bed about half an hour before 6am.  (Time to get up and feed)
When the time came to give up the baby we were told the night before and given  no information whatsoever about this process.
I had to find my own way with all my luggage and a baby, to a central building in the city, where the head nun just said "hello", took the baby and told me to leave.
We were not allowed any information about the adoptees and had to sign a form giving up all rights to the baby.


The ethos was coldness and punishment with the constant reminder that we were sinners and had to pray daily for Gods forgiveness.

According to my moral sense, I find this attitude  of condemnation repugnant, irresponsible  and damaging. It basically stems from the idea that people are sinful and they must seek salvation. Such a God  does not portray benevolence in my eyes and is not deserving of any type of worship. As I find my attitude to be a completely rational attitude to take, I refute your accusation of bigotry and will continue to challenge such hateful ideas(such as those produced by Spud on this thread) either on this message board or elsewhere as often as I see fit.
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Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #705 on: April 15, 2020, 12:32:47 PM »
It takes two to make a baby, yet it was always the female who suffered the condemnation in the bad old days! >:(
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Walter

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #706 on: April 15, 2020, 12:52:18 PM »
well said ,enki . I'm right with you .

Owlswing

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #707 on: April 15, 2020, 01:28:06 PM »
Your God has no significance for me, hence I cannot blame Him for anything because of the simple fact that I have no belief in His existence. However, I see people like you and Spud, who do have a belief in this God, blaming human beings for the pain and suffering in this world and selecting only the good things to show that this is a just and benevolent God. The fact is that according to your beliefs God created human beings and gave them free will, yet, it seems, He does not take ultimate responsibility for their actions. Instead, because of some mythological story(Adam and Eve) He curses both them and their offspring and we are then all labelled sinners from then on.

I have a very dear friend, who in her youth had an illegitimate baby at a time when society was much more Christian orientated and condemned such occurrences. Although I put this on the Message board some years ago, let me tell you her story in her own words:

According to my moral sense, I find this attitude  of condemnation repugnant, irresponsible  and damaging. It basically stems from the idea that people are sinful and they must seek salvation. Such a God  does not portray benevolence in my eyes and is not deserving of any type of worship. As I find my attitude to be a completely rational attitude to take, I refute your accusation of bigotry and will continue to challenge such hateful ideas(such as those produced by Spud on this thread) either on this message board or elsewhere as often as I see fit.

Right on! Now watch as the Christains deny your whole argument on the ground that you are a human being and therefore your argument is fallaible which their beknighted God is not!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #708 on: April 15, 2020, 01:31:57 PM »
Right on! Now watch as the Christains deny your whole argument on the ground that you are a human being and therefore your argument is fallaible which their beknighted God is not!

That'll only be a problem when God comes to make his own argument.  Until then we only have fallible humans making fallible arguments...

O.
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Owlswing

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #709 on: April 15, 2020, 01:36:27 PM »

That'll only be a problem when God comes to make his own argument.  Until then we only have fallible humans making fallible arguments...

O.


. . . we only have fallible humans making fallible arguments!

aaaaagggghhhhh!!!!! HERESY!! Said no-one who is not Christian!
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Walter

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #710 on: April 15, 2020, 02:48:54 PM »

ippy

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #711 on: April 15, 2020, 07:40:32 PM »
The reason given is that shellfish don't have fins or scales, so they are more likely to pick up some disease and transmit it to a person - like a vulture, which is also in the list. That's how I understand it anyway. Because of this, God said, 'they shall be unclean for you'. This wording points to the understanding that their prohibition was for symbolic reasons. Like how a male old lamb had to be unblemished to be acceptable for sacrifice.

'God said'? God?

jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #712 on: April 15, 2020, 08:15:10 PM »
Pain in general is useful, as it tells us something is wrong. The pain of childbirth is a reminder, like the pain of thorns and thistles.
https://www.gotquestions.org/pain-in-childbirth.html

Saying we are not responsible for doing wrong is like a child who is punished telling his parents if they knew he would be naughty they shouldn't have had him.
Nobody has said we are not responsible fo doing wrong. What they have said is we are not responsible for Adam and Eve doing wrong.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 02:16:18 PM by jeremyp »
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Owlswing

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #713 on: April 16, 2020, 01:42:50 PM »

Nobody has said we are not responsible for doing wrong. What they have said is we are not responsible for Adam and Eve doing wrong.


The Christian God is a loving God who loves all Christians. Supposedly he loves the entire population of the world.

Yet every woman for the last 2,000+++++ years has had to suffer the pains of chilbirth because ONE woman, who, in all probability never existed, fancied an apple from  the garden in which she and her husband, who also, in all probability, never existed, lived.

Loving God, my a**e!

In the above example a vicious, sadistic tyrant more like.

The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

ippy

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #714 on: April 17, 2020, 09:46:29 AM »
Spud, this applies to you in the way gloves apply to hands:  “Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too”? (Douglas Addams), oh yes there's another one of his that would also apply: 'I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously.'

I really wonder why the average religioso is so blinded by their religo stuff that they can't see the rather obvious signs of 'man made' bronze age nonsense, from the days when they didn't even know it was the Earth orbiting the Sun not the other way around.

Talking snakes, coming back from the dead, one way vaginas, another one riding a horse up to who knows where when he died, walking on water, a few fish feeding five thousand people? come on and that's only a few of the superstitional magical mythological stories we're supposed to take in as wrote.

It's about time we should be addressing these believers in a professional way, with something like: 'Oh yes, don't worry Mr or Mrs Whoever come in, have a lie down, we'll have a chat about it, now what were you saying'?

But no, it's now the 21st century and they're still here? 

ippy. 

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #715 on: April 17, 2020, 04:31:02 PM »
I have a very dear friend, who in her youth had an illegitimate baby at a time when society was much more Christian orientated and condemned such occurrences. Although I put this on the Message board some years ago, let me tell you her story in her own words:
"...When the time came to give up the baby we were told the night before and given  no information whatsoever about this process.
I had to find my own way with all my luggage and a baby, to a central building in the city, where the head nun just said "hello", took the baby and told me to leave...."
Enki, I had a browse through a list of scripture that might apply to the issue of children outside marriage, and found this: "The fatherless child is snatched from the breast; the infant of the poor is seized for a debt." Job 24:9.

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #716 on: April 17, 2020, 04:41:18 PM »
Enki, I had a browse through a list of scripture that might apply to the issue of children outside marriage, and found this: "The fatherless child is snatched from the breast; the infant of the poor is seized for a debt." Job 24:9.

Lovely!!!! >:( That doesn't say anything good about your version of god
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Enki

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #717 on: April 17, 2020, 05:05:52 PM »
Enki, I had a browse through a list of scripture that might apply to the issue of children outside marriage, and found this: "The fatherless child is snatched from the breast; the infant of the poor is seized for a debt." Job 24:9.

You seem to have missed the point entirely. Why aren't I surprised at that? Your attitude is summed up completely in your own words.

Quote
No, God is not evil, he takes everyone's life because we are all sinners.

And what those nuns did, in their callous way, was illustrating what you believe. A God who gave two humans the potential to be sinful and furthermore decided that all the descendents should be punished because they exercised that potential, deserves condemnation because He is shirking His ultimate responsibilities. As I see it, the fact that such a God was created by human beings and has been worshipped and lauded by more human beings is a testament to the dangers inherent in a belief system where our natural feelings can be so manipulated and distorted.
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ippy

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #718 on: April 17, 2020, 05:16:39 PM »
You seem to have missed the point entirely. Why aren't I surprised at that? Your attitude is summed up completely in your own words.

And what those nuns did, in their callous way, was illustrating what you believe. A God who gave two humans the potential to be sinful and furthermore decided that all the descendents should be punished because they exercised that potential, deserves condemnation because He is shirking His ultimate responsibilities. As I see it, the fact that such a God was created by human beings and has been worshipped and lauded by more human beings is a testament to the dangers inherent in a belief system where our natural feelings can be so manipulated and distorted.

Bit of a long winded way of saying, all religions quiet obviously are man made nonsense.

I agree with you Enki.

Regards, ippy. 

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #719 on: April 19, 2020, 08:51:26 PM »
You seem to have missed the point entirely. Why aren't I surprised at that? Your attitude is summed up completely in your own words.

And what those nuns did, in their callous way, was illustrating what you believe. A God who gave two humans the potential to be sinful and furthermore decided that all the descendents should be punished because they exercised that potential, deserves condemnation because He is shirking His ultimate responsibilities. As I see it, the fact that such a God was created by human beings and has been worshipped and lauded by more human beings is a testament to the dangers inherent in a belief system where our natural feelings can be so manipulated and distorted.
No, I was showing that in the case of the Nuns' bigotry against single mothers, you cannot use the Bible to support that because it clearly condemns it, as shown by the verse I quoted from Job. No-one has any right to separate children from their mothers as they did.

As to missing the point you want addressed, "A God who gave two humans the potential to be sinful and furthermore decided that all the descendents should be punished because they exercised that potential, deserves condemnation because He is shirking His ultimate responsibilities."

The answer may be there in Genesis 3, in that Adam blamed God for putting Eve there with him, and Eve blamed the serpent for deceiving her. Likewise, you blame God for not making sure we wouldn't disobey him.

Having originally blessed them and said to them, "be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it", God then made this two-fold role painful for them (difficult childbirth and gardening). Also, they would return to the dust from which they had been made. Yet he promised that despite this, the serpent would one day be crushed through their offspring. There is more to say, but it hasn't come to me yet.

Owlswing

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #720 on: April 20, 2020, 12:29:32 AM »

Having originally blessed them and said to them, "be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it", God then made this two-fold role painful for them (difficult childbirth and gardening). Also, they would return to the dust from which they had been made. Yet he promised that despite this, the serpent would one day be crushed through their offspring. There is more to say, but it hasn't come to me yet.


Two thousand years plus since He supposedly said this, and dozens of other things that were to come to pass, and it still hasn't come to pass! Just what is your omnipotent God waiting for before he fulfils all his promises and predictions?

Someone to step up and do it for Him. possibly?

Stand up Mr Trump!

Or maybe YOU could do it for him Spud!

The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #721 on: April 20, 2020, 09:13:27 AM »
No, I was showing that in the case of the Nuns' bigotry against single mothers, you cannot use the Bible to support that because it clearly condemns it, as shown by the verse I quoted from Job. No-one has any right to separate children from their mothers as they did.

As to missing the point you want addressed, "A God who gave two humans the potential to be sinful and furthermore decided that all the descendents should be punished because they exercised that potential, deserves condemnation because He is shirking His ultimate responsibilities."

The answer may be there in Genesis 3, in that Adam blamed God for putting Eve there with him, and Eve blamed the serpent for deceiving her. Likewise, you blame God for not making sure we wouldn't disobey him.

Having originally blessed them and said to them, "be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it", God then made this two-fold role painful for them (difficult childbirth and gardening). Also, they would return to the dust from which they had been made. Yet he promised that despite this, the serpent would one day be crushed through their offspring. There is more to say, but it hasn't come to me yet.

Ah Job. That's the book in which God allows an innocent and pious man to be subjected to various psychological and physical torture and allows his children to be slaughtered essentially just to prove Satan wrong about his piety.

Your god is a monster.
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Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #722 on: April 20, 2020, 10:37:33 AM »
No, I was showing that in the case of the Nuns' bigotry against single mothers, you cannot use the Bible to support that because it clearly condemns it, as shown by the verse I quoted from Job. No-one has any right to separate children from their mothers as they did.

As to missing the point you want addressed, "A God who gave two humans the potential to be sinful and furthermore decided that all the descendents should be punished because they exercised that potential, deserves condemnation because He is shirking His ultimate responsibilities."

The answer may be there in Genesis 3, in that Adam blamed God for putting Eve there with him, and Eve blamed the serpent for deceiving her. Likewise, you blame God for not making sure we wouldn't disobey him.

Having originally blessed them and said to them, "be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it", God then made this two-fold role painful for them (difficult childbirth and gardening). Also, they would return to the dust from which they had been made. Yet he promised that despite this, the serpent would one day be crushed through their offspring. There is more to say, but it hasn't come to me yet.

How can anyone love or respect a god as evil as the one in the Bible? If any god exists I hope it's character is good and decent.
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Enki

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #723 on: April 20, 2020, 11:30:56 AM »
Spud,

Quote
No, I was showing that in the case of the Nuns' bigotry against single mothers, you cannot use the Bible to support that because it clearly condemns it, as shown by the verse I quoted from Job. No-one has any right to separate children from their mothers as they did.

The trouble is, Spud, that this was the prevailing position of whole swathes of Christians in the fifties and sixties. Indeed, most churches(including evangelical) and the Salvation Army set up such homes with varying degrees of humanity/inhumanity to their clients. They didn't seem to bother about your particular quote, did they?  The unmarried mother was the one who had sinned and had brought shame to their household. And the churches were happy to collude with the governments of the day in producing 'baby farms' to address the awkward 'immoral' situation of unmarried mothers and illegitimacy.

Quote
The answer may be there in Genesis 3, in that Adam blamed God for putting Eve there with him, and Eve blamed the serpent for deceiving her. Likewise, you blame God for not making sure we wouldn't disobey him.

Again, you seem to miss the point entirely. I don't blame your God because I have no belief in any God. I really don't care who blamed who. What I am concerned about is the negative influence such ridiculous stories have had and still have upon real people.

Quote
Having originally blessed them and said to them, "be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it", God then made this two-fold role painful for them (difficult childbirth and gardening). Also, they would return to the dust from which they had been made. Yet he promised that despite this, the serpent would one day be crushed through their offspring. There is more to say, but it hasn't come to me yet.

What on earth is this a justification of? All it suggests is that this God of yours was some sort of tyrannical dictator doling out punishment and benevolence according to His own whims. It has no bearing on the idea that a just God would take ultimate responsibility for his machinations instead of the ancestral punishing of human beings.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 11:33:15 AM by enki »
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Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #724 on: April 21, 2020, 09:20:06 AM »
As to missing the point you want addressed, "A God who gave two humans the potential to be sinful and furthermore decided that all the descendents should be punished because they exercised that potential, deserves condemnation because He is shirking His ultimate responsibilities."

God made them and put them there.  God failed to adequately protect them from the dangers - if you don't want people who have no understanding of right and wrong (akin to, say, children) from eating your fruit, you put fences around the fruit you don't say 'it's wrong to eat the fruit'.  You don't leave bare wires exposed in a house and tell the kids 'don't touch' because you get electrocuted children - that's not their fault, that's yours.  In this instance, God has failed in his duty of care - that's presuming, of course, that it's somehow necessary to punish Adam and Eve for having knowledge, which is questionable in the first instance.

Quote
The answer may be there in Genesis 3, in that Adam blamed God for putting Eve there with him, and Eve blamed the serpent for deceiving her. Likewise, you blame God for not making sure we wouldn't disobey him.

Yep. God's fault, all the way - he's the system designer, he's the architect, he failed to design safety into his garden.

O.
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