Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry

[ippy]

So it's a fairy story about a facet of human consciousness which probably doesn't exist, supported by the second deity in this monotheistic display?  It doesn't demonstrate any 'fundamental realities' it just throws more unsubstantiable nonsense into an already irreconcilable pile of pseudo-mythic incompatibilities that still clearly puts any blame on the god figure within the narrative.

If 'free will' is bad enough to merit punishment, why are Adam and Even (made with curiosity but not imparted with the capacity to tell right fro wrong) put in a position to access the tree?  If Adam and Eve didn't have this free will, which is apparent intrinsic to humans, in what way were they human?  Why is everyone in history subject to punishment because of what they did?

It's just palpable nonsense even at an allegoric level.

O.

Spot on Outrider but you'll never get through to the real Alan, he's been indoctrinated beyond reach, the poor bloke, not working at any kind of sensible reasoning level.

Regards, ippy.

[Enki]

So, Exodus 22:16 has this to say,
"If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged in marriage and sleeps with her, he must pay the full dowry for her to be his wife. 17If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, the man still must pay an amount comparable to the bridal price of a virgin.…"

So the nuns may have been right that sex should be for marriage, but there is nothing in the Bible that suggests women should have babies taken away. Their actions should have reflected God's mercy but did not.

The whole point of having a written law for what to do in that situation was to make people think twice before getting into it in the first place. One cannot blame the Bible for the nuns' actions.

Your God is:
a god who decides that anyone gathering sticks on the sabbath should be put to death
a god who decides that drinking alocohol before goiny to church is punishable by death
a god who suggests that a stubborn and rebellious son should be stoned to death
a god who suggests that the punishment for being an adulterer or a prostitute or for   cursing your mother or father should be(yes, you've guessed it) put to death
a god who suggests that for eating fat your soul should be cut off from others
a god who describes children as prey
a god who suggests that beating children with rods is showing them love, but not   beating them is showing them hate
a god who finds it necessary to suggest that soldiers should not defecate in camp
a god who supports the wife of a man in a fight against another, but if she should   grab the opponent's testicles then she should have her hand cut off
a god who didn't want people with physical blemishes to serve him bread, blemishes     such as mutilated faces, broken limbs, defective sight, dwarves, hunchbacks, those   with an itching disease, scabs or crushed testicles!!
a god who wouldn't allow any man with crushed testicles or who had had their penis cut   off to walk in the assembly of God
a god who who wouldn't allow bastards or their offspring for ten generations to walk   in the assembly of God
a god who encourages baking by using human shit although he relents when Ezekial turns   his nose up at this, and allows cow dung instead
a god who suggests that when swearing to something, one must hold the other person's     crotch whilst the vow is made
a god who encouraged the stoning to death of an entire family for the mistakes of the   father
a god who killed 50070 men for looking in his box(the Ark of the Covenant)


And you think that I should take notice of what the Bible, specifically the OT, has to say? And then I should take note of this God's moral wisdom? And then I should listen to you talking about your 'God's mercy'? You're bullshitting me!

The OT presents an error strewn, petulant, dictatorial, sadistic, incompetent, silly and unworthy god. it is an apology for a god.

The Bible has been and still is a major influence upon Christianity. It is their 'Holy Book' and it has played its part, especially in the OT, in excusing  and guiding the bad behaviour promulgated by Christians. My original reply was to Sassy when she said " Nah you cannot blame God for mans own ugly characteristics."

I don't blame God at all. I don't believe in her or your God. However 'man's own ugly characteristics' are there in all their glory in the OT, as part and parcel of the god that humans have created, and the one that you seem to wish to emulate.
 

[Spud]

Mercy and the Biblical god is an oxymoron.

The book of Jonah shows the Biblical God is merciful.

You should ponder on the implication of that sentence.

What are you saying? Is this not comparable to modern men buying their fiancee an engagement ring.

[Roses]

The book of Jonah shows the Biblical God is merciful.

That is a joke!

[Gordon]

The book of Jonah shows the Biblical God is merciful.

The book of Noddy shows that he lives in Toyland.

What are you saying? Is this not comparable to modern men buying their fiancee an engagement ring.

No.

[ippy]

The book of Noddy shows that he lives in Toyland.

No.

I particularly like this post Gordon, even though it's not quiet as parchment like as most, .

Regards, ippy.

[SteveH]

Was this thread briefly a sticky recently, or did I imagine or dream it?

[Nearly Sane]

Was this thread briefly a sticky recently, or did I imagine or dream it?

The board works in mysterious ways

[jeremyp]

What are you saying? Is this not comparable to modern men buying their fiancee an engagement ring.

How can you be so confident you understand what the Bible says when you so egregiously misunderstand what that sentence was saying.

Hint: it was talking about the price you pay a father for his daughter.

[SteveH]

Your God is:
a god who decides that anyone gathering sticks on the sabbath should be put to death
a god who decides that drinking alocohol before goiny to church is punishable by death
a god who suggests that a stubborn and rebellious son should be... [continues]

Sealioning, or perhaps a Gish gallop.

[Outrider]

The book of Jonah shows the Biblical God is merciful.

Because he took mercy on someone he'd been torturing in order to decide a bet he'd made in a bar with his dark alter-ego?  That's not 'mercy' that's 'an abusive, controlling relationship'.

O.

[Enki]

Sealioning, or perhaps a Gish gallop.

Neither, just honest reactions to verses from the OT which have been quoted at me.

A gish gallop is continually presenting new arguments without answering the ones already directed at you. This isn't a gish gallop because all these are examples of the same argument, that the God presented in the OT has unsavoury characteristics. You probably were not aware but funnily enough, some years ago, on this very message board, Spud had an involved argument with a person called Richard Forrest, a scientist, on the subject of evolution. In this exchange, Spud would not answer the questions put to him, but continually posed new ones and was rightly accused by Richard as using the gish gallop technique. Some of the older members of this Message Board might remember it.

As for the idea of sealioning, I leave it to others, not you, to decide whether I am a troll. However, as I am not asking any questions, I can't be sealioning.

[Outrider]

Sealioning, or perhaps a Gish gallop.

Neither of which would actually invalidate the point that you're still not coming up with a cogent argument to, even if either were true.

O.

[Spud]

How can you be so confident you understand what the Bible says when you so egregiously misunderstand what that sentence was saying.

Hint: it was talking about the price you pay a father for his daughter.

Which wasn't supposed to be a profit-making custom. I would guess it was a way in which the groom would demonstrate his commitment, such that if he ever left her she could live off the money he'd given. I recently quoted a passage in which it specifically referred to a divorced woman going back to live with her parents.

[Spud]

Because he took mercy on someone he'd been torturing in order to decide a bet he'd made in a bar with his dark alter-ego?  That's not 'mercy' that's 'an abusive, controlling relationship'.

O.

Eh? I meant the 120,000+ people of Nineveh who he spared.

[Spud]

Neither, just honest reactions to verses from the OT which have been quoted at me.

A gish gallop is continually presenting new arguments without answering the ones already directed at you. This isn't a gish gallop because all these are examples of the same argument, that the God presented in the OT has unsavoury characteristics. You probably were not aware but funnily enough, some years ago, on this very message board, Spud had an involved argument with a person called Richard Forrest, a scientist, on the subject of evolution. In this exchange, Spud would not answer the questions put to him, but continually posed new ones and was rightly accused by Richard as using the gish gallop technique. Some of the older members of this Message Board might remember it.

As for the idea of sealioning, I leave it to others, not you, to decide whether I am a troll. However, as I am not asking any questions, I can't be sealioning.

From where I sat, it seemed like Richard demanded answers to a million and one questions, then wouldn't let Spud discuss further until he'd answered every single one of them. And you weren't allowed to disagree with him either. Totally unprofessional.

[Spud]

Your God is:
a god who decides that anyone gathering sticks on the sabbath should be put to death
a god who decides that drinking alocohol before goiny to church is punishable by death
a god who suggests that a stubborn and rebellious son should be stoned to death
a god who suggests that the punishment for being an adulterer or a prostitute or for   cursing your mother or father should be(yes, you've guessed it) put to death
a god who suggests that for eating fat your soul should be cut off from others
a god who describes children as prey
a god who suggests that beating children with rods is showing them love, but not   beating them is showing them hate
a god who finds it necessary to suggest that soldiers should not defecate in camp
a god who supports the wife of a man in a fight against another, but if she should   grab the opponent's testicles then she should have her hand cut off
a god who didn't want people with physical blemishes to serve him bread, blemishes     such as mutilated faces, broken limbs, defective sight, dwarves, hunchbacks, those   with an itching disease, scabs or crushed testicles!!
a god who wouldn't allow any man with crushed testicles or who had had their penis cut   off to walk in the assembly of God
a god who who wouldn't allow bastards or their offspring for ten generations to walk   in the assembly of God
a god who encourages baking by using human shit although he relents when Ezekial turns   his nose up at this, and allows cow dung instead
a god who suggests that when swearing to something, one must hold the other person's     crotch whilst the vow is made
a god who encouraged the stoning to death of an entire family for the mistakes of the   father
a god who killed 50070 men for looking in his box(the Ark of the Covenant)


And you think that I should take notice of what the Bible, specifically the OT, has to say? And then I should take note of this God's moral wisdom? And then I should listen to you talking about your 'God's mercy'? You're bullshitting me!

The OT presents an error strewn, petulant, dictatorial, sadistic, incompetent, silly and unworthy god. it is an apology for a god.

The Bible has been and still is a major influence upon Christianity. It is their 'Holy Book' and it has played its part, especially in the OT, in excusing  and guiding the bad behaviour promulgated by Christians. My original reply was to Sassy when she said " Nah you cannot blame God for mans own ugly characteristics."

I don't blame God at all. I don't believe in her or your God. However 'man's own ugly characteristics' are there in all their glory in the OT, as part and parcel of the god that humans have created, and the one that you seem to wish to emulate.

Your examples need to be viewed in the light of what I said earlier: that from God's perspective, spiritual death is worse than physical death. When people rebel against Him persistently they show that they are spiritually dead. This was the reason for the judgment on the Canaanites. It also explains why punishments you described were so harsh. It teaches us not to harden our hearts (Psalm something)

[Outrider]

Eh? I meant the 120,000+ people of Nineveh who he spared.

Not that this disqualifies the nature of that 'mercy', but not perpetrating genocide isn't 'mercy'!  if that's where you're setting the bar for perfect moral behaviour, then I'm a god too, I've not committed genocide yet...

O.

[jeremyp]

Because he took mercy on someone he'd been torturing in order to decide a bet he'd made in a bar with his dark alter-ego?  That's not 'mercy' that's 'an abusive, controlling relationship'.

O.

I think you're confusing Job and Jonah. Jonah was the one that God had eaten by a fish to force him to do his bidding.

[jeremyp]

Which wasn't supposed to be a profit-making custom. I would guess it was a way in which the groom would demonstrate his commitment, such that if he ever left her she could live off the money he'd given. I recently quoted a passage in which it specifically referred to a divorced woman going back to live with her parents.

It's putting a price on a human being. It reduces a woman to the level of a possession.

Also, the fact that it talks about a virgin bride tells us that women who were not virgins were considered to be damaged  goods. I bet the dowry didn't increase if the prospective husband was not a virgin.

[Roses]

It's putting a price on a human being. It reduces a woman to the level of a possession.

Also, the fact that it talks about a virgin bride tells us that women who were not virgins were considered to be damaged  goods. I bet the dowry didn't increase if the prospective husband was not a virgin.

Good post.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

a god who killed 50070 men for looking in his box(the Ark of the Covenant)

I'd be pretty peed off if 50070 men looked in my box.

[Enki]

Your examples need to be viewed in the light of what I said earlier: that from God's perspective, spiritual death is worse than physical death. When people rebel against Him persistently they show that they are spiritually dead.

It would depend upon what 'spiritual death' actually meant. There are plenty of people who would claim to be spiritually imbued without recourse to believing in the God of the OT. It seems that what you are suggesting is that this God decided that anyone who didn't follow Him would be described as being spiritually dead, especially if they had the temerity to rebel against Him. How convenient!

This was the reason for the judgment on the Canaanites. It also explains why punishments you described were so harsh.

Well it's certainly an excuse, although a pretty lame one, for some of the unjustified and reprehensible punishments that I referred to. As I have already said, this God fails to take ultimate responsibility for His creations, and, if He actually existed,  should be castigated for his ugly and unpleasant behaviour.

It teaches us not to harden our hearts (Psalm something)

In which case He should have taken heed of his own advice and not been instrumental in hardening hearts himself, or, if he failed to do so, then He should have punished Himself or He would have laid Himself open to be called a hypocrite.

Unfortunately, you seem to show the same penchant in attempting to justify the unjustifiable as plenty of Christians have shown over the years, attitudes which have sadly led to heartache and suffering in numerous cases.

[Enki]

I'd be pretty peed off if 50070 men looked in my box.

I'm sure you would, Vlad.    But would you feel peed off enough to kill them?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Enki, They were hard times in those days. It was a brutal world, after all, amongst other things the OT is the story of national survival and that always requires extraordinary disciplinary measures and laws. Also there are mythic and legendary aspects about the stories. And remember we hide metal tubes at the bottom of the sea with devices that can incinerate millions, not just smite 50070.

Christians look upon the OT through the lens of the New Testament.