Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry

[Roses]

Enki, They were hard times in those days. It was a brutal world, after all, amongst other things the OT is the story of national survival and that always requires extraordinary disciplinary measures and laws. Also there are mythic and legendary aspects about the stories. And remember we hide metal tubes at the bottom of the sea with devices that can incinerate millions, not just smite 50070.

Christians look upon the OT through the lens of the New Testament.

EXCUSES, EXCUSES!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

EXCUSES, EXCUSES!

Remember, your taxes go to weapons of mass destruction.

[Alan Burns]

Your God is:
a god who decides that anyone gathering sticks on the sabbath should be put to death
a god who decides that drinking alocohol before goiny to church is punishable by death
a god who suggests that a stubborn and rebellious son should be stoned to death
a god who suggests that the punishment for being an adulterer or a prostitute or for   cursing your mother or father should be(yes, you've guessed it) put to death
a god who suggests that for eating fat your soul should be cut off from others
a god who describes children as prey
a god who suggests that beating children with rods is showing them love, but not   beating them is showing them hate
a god who finds it necessary to suggest that soldiers should not defecate in camp
a god who supports the wife of a man in a fight against another, but if she should   grab the opponent's testicles then she should have her hand cut off
a god who didn't want people with physical blemishes to serve him bread, blemishes     such as mutilated faces, broken limbs, defective sight, dwarves, hunchbacks, those   with an itching disease, scabs or crushed testicles!!
a god who wouldn't allow any man with crushed testicles or who had had their penis cut   off to walk in the assembly of God
a god who who wouldn't allow bastards or their offspring for ten generations to walk   in the assembly of God
a god who encourages baking by using human shit although he relents when Ezekial turns   his nose up at this, and allows cow dung instead
a god who suggests that when swearing to something, one must hold the other person's     crotch whilst the vow is made
a god who encouraged the stoning to death of an entire family for the mistakes of the   father
a god who killed 50070 men for looking in his box(the Ark of the Covenant)

You quote much from the old testament which is offers many examples of God's revelations being misinterpreted for various reasons.  Which is why we needed Jesus to come into our world to set us right.  But people continue to misinterpret the message of the New Testament to satisfy their own selfish needs.  If you read the Bible in a prayerful, sincere way you will come to realise the fundamental message of God's love and eternal salvation which all too often often falls on deaf ears.

[Roses]

You quote much from the old testament which is offers many examples of God's revelations being misinterpreted for various reasons.  Which is why we needed Jesus to come into our world to set us right.  But people continue to misinterpret the message of the New Testament to satisfy their own selfish needs.  If you read the Bible in a prayerful, sincere way you will come to realise the fundamental message of God's love and eternal salvation which all too often often falls on deaf ears.

If you read the Bible after being indoctrinated, you will see it in the way you have been instructed to see it!

[Enki]

Enki, They were hard times in those days. It was a brutal world, after all, amongst other things the OT is the story of national survival and that always requires extraordinary disciplinary measures and laws. Also there are mythic and legendary aspects about the stories. And remember we hide metal tubes at the bottom of the sea with devices that can incinerate millions, not just smite 50070.

Christians look upon the OT through the lens of the New Testament.

It's not much good telling me all this, Vlad. I know all this already and basically I agree with you. Tell Spud, it's he who keeps quoting at me from the OT and seems to take his selected verses literally. My point is consistent; that such stories, whether they be allegories/myths/pseudo-historical narratives/historical narratives have had the deletorious affect on Christianity that I referred to earlier in my exchanges with Spud.

I haven't a clue what you might be referring to with your metal tubes, unless it's associated with the nuclear radiation which was/is a threat after the tsunami at Fukushima. However, whatever it is it you meant, I fail to see that it has any bearing on the point that this God is supposed to have deliberately murdered 50070 people for a minor infraction of his so called rules. 

[Enki]

You quote much from the old testament which is offers many examples of God's revelations being misinterpreted for various reasons.  Which is why we needed Jesus to come into our world to set us right.  But people continue to misinterpret the message of the New Testament to satisfy their own selfish needs.  If you read the Bible in a prayerful, sincere way you will come to realise the fundamental message of God's love and eternal salvation which all too often often falls on deaf ears.

Firstly I didn't quote from the OT, I referred to certain verses in the OT.(I can give you the book, chapter and verse numbers if you like). Whether they are misinterpreted or not isn't up to you, anyway.
The rest of your condemnatory, ill thought out and proselytising post has simply no real significance or meaning for me.
Incidentally I find it interesting that you respond to a post which was directed to another person(I have no problem with that), but when I have asked you awkward questions directly , answer comes there none.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It's not much good telling me all this, Vlad. I know all this already and basically I agree with you. Tell Spud, it's he who keeps quoting at me from the OT and seems to take his selected verses literally. My point is consistent; that such stories, whether they be allegories/myths/pseudo-historical narratives/historical narratives have had the deletorious affect on Christianity that I referred to earlier in my exchanges with Spud.

I haven't a clue what you might be referring to with your metal tubes, unless it's associated with the nuclear radiation which was/is a threat after the tsunami at Fukushima. However, whatever it is it you meant, I fail to see that it has any bearing on the point that this God is supposed to have deliberately murdered 50070 people for a minor infraction of his so called rules.

They don't have a deleterious effect on my Christianity because I know the lengths WE would go to today to ensure national or even cultural survival involving weapons of mass destruction in submarines. Life was relatively comfortable for us for the last three quarters of a century although I think things are about to get harsher so we may get some flavour of treading close to national downfall.

Regarding a minor infraction. That's rather up to who was in charge.

[Nearly Sane]

They don't have a deleterious effect on my Christianity because I know the lengths WE would go to today to ensure national or even cultural survival involving weapons of mass destruction in submarines. Life was relatively comfortable for us for the last three quarters of a century although I think things are about to get harsher so we may get some flavour of treading close to national downfall.

Regarding a minor infraction. That's rather up to who was in charge.

Irrelevant drivel

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Irrelevant drivel

Repitition of the same word is attempted hypnosis or meme placement.

Mind you if I had been banging on about methodological naturalism of other methodologies with some success and then was reminded that methodologies do not help the philosophy, I'd be looking for strange and wonderful ways of keeping myself in notice.

[Nearly Sane]

Repitition of the same word is attempted hypnosis or meme placement.

Mind you if I had been banging on about methodological naturalism of other methodologies with some success and then was reminded that methodologies do not help the philosophy, I'd be looking for strange and wonderful ways of keeping myself in notice.

lying drivel

[ippy]

These discussions between Christians and rational thinkers doesn't matter that much insomuch that who said what or did something to someone else is of no consequence let the Christians get on with it, it's their nonsense let them discuss it between themselves.

I really can't see a need or any point trying to reason with Christians as much now their numbers are depleted and depleting daily on an exponential scale in the west, we should be focusing on stopping them indoctrinating our young and vulnerable children with their nonsense, rid our schools of religions and then sieve through all of the manifold privileges, large and small, they've acquired over the years and withdraw these unjustified and unjustifiable privileges completely

A good start would be to throw out the religious element, of both sides, out of all of the schools in Northern Island.

I don't see the point discussing beliefs where it's so blindingly obvious they're man made, bronze age, ridiculous, nonsense all of them they now need to be relegated to a more suitable place somewhere in the past where they belong and we should start concentrating on the more logical, the rational and general humanities, and then let the religious believers go their own way, I can't see that we need them. 

ippy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

These discussions between Christians and rational thinkers doesn't matter that much insomuch that who said what or did something to someone else is of no consequence let the Christians get on with it, it's their nonsense let them discuss it between themselves.

I really can't see a need or any point trying to reason with Christians as much now their numbers are depleted and depleting daily on an exponential scale in the west, we should be focusing on stopping them indoctrinating our young and vulnerable children with their nonsense, rid our schools of religions and then sieve through all of the manifold privileges, large and small, they've acquired over the years and withdraw these unjustified and unjustifiable privileges completely

A good start would be to throw out the religious element, of both sides, out of all of the schools in Northern Island.

I don't see the point discussing beliefs where it's so blindingly obvious they're man made, bronze age, ridiculous, nonsense all of them they now need to be relegated to a more suitable place somewhere in the past where they belong and we should start concentrating on the more logical, the rational and general humanities, and then let the religious believers go their own way, I can't see that we need them. 

ippy.

More intolerant antitheistic intellectual totalitarianism.

[Nearly Sane]

More intolerant antitheistic intellectual totalitarianism.

Not entirely drivel

[Enki]

They don't have a deleterious effect on my Christianity because I know the lengths WE would go to today to ensure national or even cultural survival involving weapons of mass destruction in submarines. Life was relatively comfortable for us for the last three quarters of a century although I think things are about to get harsher so we may get some flavour of treading close to national downfall.

Regarding a minor infraction. That's rather up to who was in charge.

Are you seriously comparing what we might or might not do in the event of ensuring 'national or even cultural survival' with the supposed murder of thousands of people by the OT God for daring to look into His holy box? And this, remember, is supposed to be the God that created us. All I can say is that the God, as shown in the OT, seems to be of a murderous and petty disposition who doesn't take ultimate responsibility for His creations.

As regards this 'minor infraction', no, it shouldn't be up to who was in charge. You think the Bosnian genocide, for instance, was o.k. because those in charge thought it was? I think that there is generally a consensus of opinion that a crime had been committed despite the fact that those in charge thought that killing 8000 people was  the right thing to do. Just because the supposed entity in charge is called a God doesn't let Him off the hook.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Are you seriously comparing what we might or might not do in the event of ensuring 'national or even cultural survival' with the supposed murder of thousands of people by the OT God for daring to look into His holy box? And this, remember, is supposed to be the God that created us. All I can say is that the God, as shown in the OT, seems to be of a murderous and petty disposition who doesn't take ultimate responsibility for His creations.

As regards this 'minor infraction', no, it shouldn't be up to who was in charge. You think the Bosnian genocide, for instance, was o.k. because those in charge thought it was? I think that there is generally a consensus of opinion that a crime had been committed despite the fact that those in charge thought that killing 8000 people was  the right thing to do. Just because the supposed entity in charge is called a God doesn't let Him off the hook.

It's not up to God it's up to Enki. With God death is not the end.

[ippy]

More intolerant antitheistic intellectual totalitarianism.

I think tolerance of religion is an important matter, as is depriving religions of all of their so numerous privileges an important matter, but there as you hinted by the tone of this post of yours most religionists wrongly see anyone that tries to deprive them of their privileges to achieve a level playing field as just another form persecution and boy don't we all know those religionists love rallying the troops when they think they're being persecuted.

Have another good day with your invisible friend Vlad, regards,ippy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think tolerance of religion is an important matter, as is depriving religions of all of their so numerous privileges an important matter, but there as you hinted by the tone of this post of yours most religionists wrongly see anyone that tries to deprive them of their privileges to achieve a level playing field as just another form persecution and boy don't we all know those religionists love rallying the troops when they think they're being persecuted.

Have another good day with your invisible friend Vlad, regards,ippy.

There is a huge problem of privileges in our society. Religious privilege comes way, way, down the list. In fact I would imagine there are privileges you do supports.

[ippy]

There is a huge problem of privileges in our society. Religious privilege comes way, way, down the list. In fact I would imagine there are privileges you do supports.

I must admit the subtly of how the many privileges afforded to the religions are tucked away many hidden in plain sight does give the impression that religions are way down on the list, even to those that normally have no truck with religion manage to miss them for the moment.

I would be the first to recommend privileges for Humanists and Humanism in general but only until the level playing field between the various religious and non-religious beliefs has been well established, by removing privileges from all.

ippy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I must admit the subtly of how the many privileges afforded to the religions are tucked away many hidden in plain sight does give the impression that religions are way down on the list, even to those that normally have no truck with religion manage to miss them for the moment.

I would be the first to recommend privileges for Humanists and Humanism in general but only until the level playing field between the various religious and non-religious beliefs has been well established, by removing privileges from all.

ippy.

But that removes religion but not non religion. Non religion is thence supremely privilege. Behind every antitheist bleating about privilege there is an antitheist wanting all the privileges themselves.

[ippy]

But that removes religion but not non religion. Non religion is thence supremely privilege. Behind every antitheist bleating about privilege there is an antitheist wanting all the privileges themselves.

You're off again Vlad No wonder you always going around in circles, non-religious beliefs, not anti anything.

What is it about religion Vlad? Isn't it robust enough to survive without having any of the many privileges it has at the moment?

Mind you religious belief is certainly taking a tumble here in the UK, last I heard the Anglicans were running at about 12% of the total of47%  religious believers left here in the UK.

ippy.

[Nearly Sane]

I must admit the subtly of how the many privileges afforded to the religions are tucked away many hidden in plain sight does give the impression that religions are way down on the list, even to those that normally have no truck with religion manage to miss them for the moment.

I would be the first to recommend privileges for Humanists and Humanism in general but only until the level playing field between the various religious and non-religious beliefs has been well established, by removing privileges from all.

ippy.

What privileges would you want to grant to Humanists, and why?

[Spud]

Your God is:
a god who decides that anyone gathering sticks on the sabbath should be put to death

Here's an attempt at an explanation.
When the Israelites came out of Egypt they found they had nothing to eat, so they complained. God provided manna and said that he would test them through it to see if they'd follow his instructions (Ex 16:4). He told them that they should not go out to collect manna on the sabbath, but collect double the usual amount the day before, and it would keep for a further 24 hours. (If on any other day they kept some until the morning, it would go off and smell. So they may have thought it would be necessary to collect it on the Sabbath. Yet God told them to keep some from the day before, and that it wouldn't go off. This was God's miraculous way of showing that it was He who provided it).
Ex 16:27-28 says,

Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. Then the Lord said to Moses, “How long will you refuse to keep my commands and my instructions?

Nobody was stoned to death on this occasion, neither were they after Nehemiah caught people bringing goods into Jerusalem to trade on the Sabbath, after the Exile.
We should assume that the person found gathering sticks (Numbers 15) knew it was prohibited, since everyone experienced the miracle of the manna. The principle of not working on the Sabbath is founded in the need of every part of creation to rest. This is built into it, such that if it is denied its rest then environmental disaster will follow. Thus when we work on this day we are storing up serious problems for later. Hence the seriousness of the punishment given in Exodus 31:14.
Nowadays we have what I have recently heard described as an economic surplus. This enables us to lock up murderers in prison, so avoiding the need for capital punishment. Without that, it would be necessary to punish murder in the most efficient way possible. Given that some other things, such as you have listed, are damaging to society, and assuming no economic surplus, these too were made into capital offenses.

[Enki]

Here's an attempt at an explanation.
When the Israelites came out of Egypt they found they had nothing to eat, so they complained. God provided manna and said that he would test them through it to see if they'd follow his instructions (Ex 16:4). He told them that they should not go out to collect manna on the sabbath, but collect double the usual amount the day before, and it would keep for a further 24 hours. (If on any other day they kept some until the morning, it would go off and smell. So they may have thought it would be necessary to collect it on the Sabbath. Yet God told them to keep some from the day before, and that it wouldn't go off. This was God's miraculous way of showing that it was He who provided it).
Ex 16:27-28 says, Nobody was stoned to death on this occasion, neither were they after Nehemiah caught people bringing goods into Jerusalem to trade on the Sabbath, after the Exile.
We should assume that the person found gathering sticks (Numbers 15) knew it was prohibited, since everyone experienced the miracle of the manna. The principle of not working on the Sabbath is founded in the need of every part of creation to rest. This is built into it, such that if it is denied its rest then environmental disaster will follow. Thus when we work on this day we are storing up serious problems for later. Hence the seriousness of the punishment given in Exodus 31:14.
Nowadays we have what I have recently heard described as an economic surplus. This enables us to lock up murderers in prison, so avoiding the need for capital punishment. Without that, it would be necessary to punish murder in the most efficient way possible. Given that some other things, such as you have listed, are damaging to society, and assuming no economic surplus, these too were made into capital offenses.

Nothing you have said, Spud, takes away from the downright viciousness and pettiness of a God which commanded Moses and his entourage to stone a man to death simply for gathering sticks on the Sabbath, which they did, seemingly with alacrity. Even as an allegory/mythical account(which it probably was, as there is little evidence that Moses actually existed) it simply portrays the harshness of a people whose leaders no doubt needed to keep control by such barbaric methods. Such a story I would suggest has little of moral worth to teach us today. indeed, such a story simply reduces this God to a rather despicable and demeaning level in my eyes.

[Spud]

Nothing you have said, Spud, takes away from the downright viciousness and pettiness of a God which commanded Moses and his entourage to stone a man to death simply for gathering sticks on the Sabbath, which they did, seemingly with alacrity.

Why do you think that? Alacrity means brisk and cheerful readiness. I would think the opposite.

Even as an allegory/mythical account(which it probably was, as there is little evidence that Moses actually existed) it simply portrays the harshness of a people whose leaders no doubt needed to keep control by such barbaric methods.

If we are to be consistent in interpretation, in the story it is because they had seen God's miracles in Egypt and the wilderness, which convinced them that he was real, that they carried out the stoning, not because they were barbaric in themselves. We have to ask why God would tell them to do it.

Such a story I would suggest has little of moral worth to teach us today. indeed, such a story simply reduces this God to a rather despicable and demeaning level in my eyes.

In context, the incident is an example of someone sinning defiantly, which is discussed in the previous paragraph of Numbers 15.

[Roses]

Why do you think that? Alacrity means brisk and cheerful readiness. I would think the opposite.If we are to be consistent in interpretation, in the story it is because they had seen God's miracles in Egypt and the wilderness, which convinced them that he was real, that they carried out the stoning, not because they were barbaric in themselves. We have to ask why God would tell them to do it.In context, the incident is an example of someone sinning defiantly, which is discussed in the previous paragraph of Numbers 31.

Poor Spud your posts lack any sort of credibility. Biblical literalism is sadder than sad.