Author Topic: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry  (Read 103719 times)

ekim

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #875 on: May 01, 2020, 09:28:45 AM »
Religious revivals do happen, y'know - often in response to major natural disasters, so the current pandemic could spark one.
After decades of repression under communism, the Russian Orthodox Church is said to count nearly 70% of Russia's population - about 100 million people - among its members.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #876 on: May 01, 2020, 09:31:33 AM »
Religious revivals do happen, y'know - often in response to major natural disasters, so the current pandemic could spark one.
But you were the one who said that once people reach adulthood they very rarely change their religion - and you are correct.

And on major natural disasters etc - can you give me an example of one that has produced a revival in the religious attendance in the UK in my lifetime (I'm 53). I agree that sometimes a major incident results in churches being used as places to mark the event in the days and weeks afterwards and often many people attend, who might not have been in a church for years. But that isn't a revival as those people will go straight back to non-attendance. I suspect (and I'll look up the research on this) that major events produce a very short term uptick in religiosity-linked behaviour, but increase the decline in the longer term as people's faith is shaken further on the basis of 'how could god allow this to happen'.

On this particular one I imagine it will be detrimental to church attendance in the long run. Firstly, and most obviously, the increased death rate which is particularly associated with the oldest (and therefore most religious) age group. Secondly regular church goers will not have attended for weeks, if not months, once we are fully out of lockdown (I can't imagine religious gatherings will be top priority for the government to allow in the first stage of relaxation). Plenty of those people will head straight back to the old attendance pattern, but there will be some who, having got out of the habit of attending, just wont go back to it. Frankly I'm struggling to see why a non-religious, non-church attending person (the vast majority of the population), would suddenly think, post-lock-down, hey do you know what I going to go to church.

SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #877 on: May 01, 2020, 09:47:38 AM »
Is it not possible that God may be blamed for the "current pandemic"? Seeing as how everything that happens in this world happens by his will?
Religious belief is not entirely logical, nor should it be. There is, rightly, a large emotional element.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #878 on: May 01, 2020, 09:55:02 AM »
After decades of repression under communism, the Russian Orthodox Church is said to count nearly 70% of Russia's population - about 100 million people - among its members.
But I don't think that is really a revival as there wasn't freedom of religion during the communist period. All we are seeing there is a renewed ability to express that belief. And it isn't really applicable to the UK.

In my lifetime (53 years) can anyone think of an event that has produced a revival in religiosity in the UK beyond the immediate aftermath - I can't.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #879 on: May 01, 2020, 10:02:10 AM »
Just had a scan at the research on religiosity linked to disasters. There isn't much and largely it just looks at the immediate aftermath. My summary is:

1. There tends to be a short term uplift in religious-linked behaviour linked to natural disasters as communities come together with churches/mosques etc acting an as obvious focus for the community.

2. That uptick rapidly dissolves and religiosity reverts to pre-disaster trends at least.

3. Disasters where the main impact id deaths tend to show an short-term uptick in religious-linked behaviour. However disasters where the main impact is financial/economic result in a decline in religious-linked behaviour, presumably exacerbating the long range decline in religiosity.

To note I don't think any of this research has been performed in the UK - although there was some in Canada and New Zealand, which might be comparable. Countries where religious activity is largely the norm are likely to be different to ones where religious activity is relatively rare, such as the UK.

Udayana

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #880 on: May 01, 2020, 11:31:34 AM »
Clearly the odd earthquake, tsunami or plague isn't going to do it.

To get back on track &deity is going to need a new, global, dark ages. Make sure there is no education and any critical thinking is stamped out. Collapse due to climate change might do it - maybe spiced up with a dose of biological or nuclear warfare.

Or could just dial everyone direct as in "Cell"?

After which? The dawning of the Age of Aquarius!

Or maybe Gilead or like something out of Robert Harris' "The second sleep"? 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #881 on: May 01, 2020, 11:35:04 AM »
Clearly the odd earthquake, tsunami or plague isn't going to do it.

To get back on track &deity is going to need a new, global, dark ages. Make sure there is no education and any critical thinking is stamped out. Collapse due to climate change might do it - maybe spiced up with a dose of biological or nuclear warfare.

Or could just dial everyone direct as in "Cell"?

After which? The dawning of the Age of Aquarius!

Or maybe Gilead or like something out of Robert Harris' "The second sleep"?
Or 'A Canticle For Leibowitz'?
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Udayana

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #882 on: May 01, 2020, 11:41:48 AM »
Or 'A Canticle For Leibowitz'?

I've got that somewhere ... need to dig it out. 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #883 on: May 01, 2020, 11:49:55 AM »
I read it 50-odd years ago. I must get hold of another copy, and re-read it.
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ippy

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #884 on: May 01, 2020, 04:17:42 PM »
Suppose all the people you fancy are married. What do you do?

You have every right to think the way you do about gay people don't you think it's about time you either change your ways or if you can't at least have the decency to shut up and keep your views on this particular subject to yourself.

Your pathetic, 'Suppose all the people you fancy are married. What do you do, is hardly a part of any adult conversation.

P S As an after thought to my post above I think it's about time I told off my two adopted black sons, for being black, makes equally as much sense as your general attitude toward people that are gay

ippy.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 04:24:29 PM by ippy »

SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #885 on: May 01, 2020, 04:33:19 PM »
Suppose all the people you fancy are married. What do you do?
What a bloody stupid comment.
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Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #886 on: May 01, 2020, 04:52:50 PM »
Spud doesn't seem to put his brain into gear when posting! >:(
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Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #887 on: May 01, 2020, 07:42:50 PM »
Why is it morally wrong for me to act on my attraction to my male partner, and yet it is ok for a heterosexual to act on their attraction to their partner.
I would say, here is a reason why you should not do that: simply, men and women's private parts compliment each others anatomically and physiologically, whereas two men's don't. I remember someone once saying that when your heart (which I took to mean finding someone attractive) and your head (eg you know your body is designed for a female partner) don't agree then something's not right.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #888 on: May 01, 2020, 07:51:40 PM »
I would say, here is a reason why you should not do that: simply, men and women's private parts compliment each others anatomically and physiologically, whereas two men's don't. I remember someone once saying that when your heart (which I took to mean finding someone attractive) and your head (eg you know your body is designed for a female partner) don't agree then something's not right.
Fuck off

SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #889 on: May 01, 2020, 07:59:41 PM »
Fuck off
Very erudite answer. Spud has got a point: I don't think faithful, mutually serving and loving homosexual relationships are sinful, and I welcomed the equalisation of the age of consent, and later the introduction of civil partnerships, which gave homosexual couples the same legal rights as married heterosexual couples, but the anatomical point does suggest that gay relationships should not be regarded as absolutely on a par with heterosexual ones, which is why I think gay marriage was a step too far, since it didn't give gay couples any new rights, and was thus purely cosmetic.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #890 on: May 01, 2020, 08:14:25 PM »
Very erudite answer. Spud has got a point: I don't think faithful, mutually serving and loving homosexual relationships are sinful, and I welcomed the equalisation of the age of consent, and later the introduction of civil partnerships, which gave homosexual couples the same legal rights as married heterosexual couples, but the anatomical point does suggest that gay relationships should not be regarded as absolutely on a par with heterosexual ones, which is why I think gay marriage was a step too far, since it didn't give gay couples any new rights, and was thus purely cosmetic.
And fuck off with your twee homophobia

SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #891 on: May 01, 2020, 08:18:21 PM »
Well, we are being witty and erudite tonight, aren't we? Oscar Wilde, look to your laurels!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #892 on: May 01, 2020, 08:19:38 PM »
Well, we are being witty and erudite tonight, aren't we? Oscar Wilde, look to your laurels!
Don"t really find a need to be witty to homophobes

Aruntraveller

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #893 on: May 01, 2020, 11:25:54 PM »
My oh my.

I can assure Spud anatomically two men fit together just fine. However even if they didn't, so what? I would suggest that you are perhaps conflating your own squeamishness over certain acts rather than considering the whole person.

As to Steve, you surprise and disappoint me.

And just to tell you, you are wrong there were differences between Civil Partnerships and marriage, small but they were there.

The wider point is however, a social one. While ever there was a difference it was all too easy for the bigots out there to say that my relationship isn't as valid as a heterosexual relationship. The equalisation of marriage  took that particular distinction away. I didn't expect Spud to see the value of that, but I did think you would Steve.

Sad, but there it is.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #894 on: May 01, 2020, 11:33:44 PM »
And just to tell you, you are wrong there were differences between Civil Partnerships and marriage, small but they were there.
True, which is why the pragmatic stepping stone toward equality, with civil partnership just for same sex couple and marriage for opposite sex couples, while necessary was never going to be tenable in the long run.

Fortunately we have now finally reached equality - the first step being extending marriage to same sex couples, the second being extending civil partnerships to opposite sex couples.

Good when things eventually turn out right :)

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #895 on: May 02, 2020, 08:28:34 AM »
Very erudite answer. Spud has got a point: I don't think faithful, mutually serving and loving homosexual relationships are sinful, and I welcomed the equalisation of the age of consent, and later the introduction of civil partnerships, which gave homosexual couples the same legal rights as married heterosexual couples, but the anatomical point does suggest that gay relationships should not be regarded as absolutely on a par with heterosexual ones, which is why I think gay marriage was a step too far, since it didn't give gay couples any new rights, and was thus purely cosmetic.

Why shouldn't gay have exactly the same right as heterosexuals? If they wish to marry they should be able to do so, either in a register office or a church.
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Owlswing

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #896 on: May 02, 2020, 11:37:48 AM »

Why shouldn't gay have exactly the same right as heterosexuals? If they wish to marry they should be able to do so, either in a register office or a church.


Please do not hold your breath waiting for this to become fact! Spud would have a heartattack!
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jeremyp

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #897 on: May 02, 2020, 12:25:34 PM »
Is it not possible that God may be blamed for the "current pandemic"? Seeing as how everything that happens in this world happens by his will?

Of course he won't. People like me won't blame God because we don't believe he exists. Christians Steve won't blame God because they believe God is good.

What will be interesting is to see what happens in the USA with some religious groups not practising social distancing. If church congregations are cut down by the disease, will it lead to others drawing the conclusion that they don't want to be religious after all.
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ippy

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #898 on: May 02, 2020, 12:49:30 PM »
Very erudite answer. Spud has got a point: I don't think faithful, mutually serving and loving homosexual relationships are sinful, and I welcomed the equalisation of the age of consent, and later the introduction of civil partnerships, which gave homosexual couples the same legal rights as married heterosexual couples, but the anatomical point does suggest that gay relationships should not be regarded as absolutely on a par with heterosexual ones, which is why I think gay marriage was a step too far, since it didn't give gay couples any new rights, and was thus purely cosmetic.

Hasn't it occurred to you that whatever gay couples have going between them in their private life is none of anybody else's business, so really the expression of go forth and multiply applies to you as much as it does to that other ignoramus.

Whatever happened to thinking for yourselves you two?

ippy

ippy

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #899 on: May 02, 2020, 01:07:12 PM »
My oh my.

I can assure Spud anatomically two men fit together just fine. However even if they didn't, so what? I would suggest that you are perhaps conflating your own squeamishness over certain acts rather than considering the whole person.

As to Steve, you surprise and disappoint me.

And just to tell you, you are wrong there were differences between Civil Partnerships and marriage, small but they were there.

The wider point is however, a social one. While ever there was a difference it was all too easy for the bigots out there to say that my relationship isn't as valid as a heterosexual relationship. The equalisation of marriage  took that particular distinction away. I didn't expect Spud to see the value of that, but I did think you would Steve.

Sad, but there it is.


Well Trent there's a lot more of us than these two ignorant examples, even now after the many times I've heard these ignorant people quoting the dogma they've allowed themselves be taken in by, I still find it a shocking intolerant stance for anyone to actually take up.

I suppose as long as these ignoramuses are not a threat to gay people in any way they are entitled to their point of view, I for one would rather they kept their idiotically regressive views to themselves.

Regards Trent, ippy.