Author Topic: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry  (Read 98237 times)

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1625 on: June 30, 2020, 12:07:49 PM »
I can only take so much self-righteous sanctimoniosity, so I'm off this tread for now.

You are the self-righteous sanctimonious one on this thread. No doubt you will be back posting on it again very soon. ;D
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1626 on: June 30, 2020, 12:12:12 PM »
I can only take so much self-righteous sanctimoniosity, so I'm off this tread for now.
Because objecting to you telling Trentvoyager that you think people should be allowed to treat him as a second class citizen is just self righteous 'sanctimoniosity'. Keep telling yourself that.

Gordon

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1627 on: June 30, 2020, 12:51:05 PM »
Seems clear enough to me.

Oh I get that people have a right to think whatever they like, and that is an internal subjective process.

The issue though, since we are talking 'rights', is how a 'right' to be prejudiced is qualified and what obligations this 'right' entails in respect of interactions across society at large.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 12:54:30 PM by Gordon »

BeRational

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1628 on: June 30, 2020, 01:56:11 PM »
I can only take so much self-righteous sanctimoniosity, so I'm off this tread for now.

I think the point is that you are correct that people can think what they like. This is obviously true.

But I think but correct me if I am wrong, that you think they this should allow them to act in accordance  with their beliefs?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1629 on: June 30, 2020, 02:07:44 PM »
I think the point is that you are correct that people can think what they like. This is obviously true.

But I think but correct me if I am wrong, that you think they this should allow them to act in accordance  with their beliefs?

In which case ISIS should be permitted to act in the way they are doing, and kill people who don't see it their way. :o
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1630 on: June 30, 2020, 11:37:17 PM »
I think the point is that you are correct that people can think what they like. This is obviously true.

But I think but correct me if I am wrong, that you think they this should allow them to act in accordance  with their beliefs?
No, except for some very limited conscience clauses for conservative religious people.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Owlswing

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1631 on: July 01, 2020, 12:38:08 AM »

No, except for some very limited conscience clauses for conservative religious people.


Special privileges for those who will not admit that their deity may be non-existent, may only be, in fact, most probably are, a matter of their faith without any evidence of it being a fact!

Why? So you can legally be an anti-gay bigot?




« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 04:49:00 PM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Gordon

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1632 on: July 01, 2020, 07:30:59 AM »
No, except for some very limited conscience clauses for conservative religious people.

Are conscience clauses exclusively to cater for the prejudices of conservative religious people: and is that people of all religions, or just Christians?

If not, then presumably us non-religious people could request a conscience clause to justify a stance against any allowing any religious tradition(s) to have any special status as regards social policy if that tradition is being used to justify any form of discrimination or if it involves any form of restraint in choice, trade or social interaction.   

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1633 on: July 01, 2020, 08:09:25 AM »
In which case ISIS should be permitted to act in the way they are doing, and kill people who don't see it their way. :o
Except in the matter in question it is more a case of not acting.

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1634 on: July 01, 2020, 08:16:04 AM »
It seems valid to me: these doctors would be denying certain patients access to the full range of the medical services they offer based on their (the doctors) personal disapproval of certain specific aspects of the personal characteristics of these patients.
You've moved from a doctor denying treatment to an anti-gay rights activist, to denying it to a gay person, I think?
The comparison was with denying a double bed to a gay couple. One is allowing someone to potentially die, the other is denying someone access to sexual activity.

Gordon

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1635 on: July 01, 2020, 08:21:17 AM »
You've moved from a doctor denying treatment to an anti-gay rights activist, to denying it to a gay person, I think?
The comparison was with denying a double bed to a gay couple. One is allowing someone to potentially die, the other is denying someone access to sexual activity.

No - both cases involve a restriction in the services offered (certain type of bed or medical treatment) due to the prejudices of the service provider.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1636 on: July 01, 2020, 08:24:37 AM »
You've moved from a doctor denying treatment to an anti-gay rights activist, to denying it to a gay person, I think?
The comparison was with denying a double bed to a gay couple. One is allowing someone to potentially die, the other is denying someone access to sexual activity.
What a surprise! Homophobic person hung up on the idea of sexual activity. There's been many a time when I have stayed in hotels and b'n'bs with my partner and not had sex. But I do like sleeping with my partner. It gives me joy and comfort to fall asleep in their arms.

But you want that stopped for gay people because you want them to be treated as second class citizens, my little homophobic tuber.

And mindblowingly I have had sex in a single bed!

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1637 on: July 01, 2020, 08:31:49 AM »
You've moved from a doctor denying treatment to an anti-gay rights activist, to denying it to a gay person, I think?
The comparison was with denying a double bed to a gay couple. One is allowing someone to potentially die, the other is denying someone access to sexual activity.

Gays have as much right to have sex in a double bed as heterosexuals.
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1638 on: July 01, 2020, 08:47:05 AM »
Gays have as much right to have sex in a double bed as heterosexuals.
Missing the point in classic LR fashion.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1639 on: July 01, 2020, 08:51:39 AM »
Missing the point in classic LR fashion.

No I am not. Gays should have the same rights as heterosexuals.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1640 on: July 01, 2020, 09:04:55 AM »
You've moved from a doctor denying treatment to an anti-gay rights activist, to denying it to a gay person, I think?
The comparison was with denying a double bed to a gay couple. One is allowing someone to potentially die, the other is denying someone access to sexual activity.

No you are missing the point. I was taking it to something of an extreme. My point is you don't get to decide to be able to discriminate without any repercussions. If you want to discriminate on religious grounds then you have to allow others to discriminate on their own defined terms,if you don't allow that you are ....guess what..... discriminating against them.

Religion is not a "get out of jail  free" card to be played when you want to uphold centuries of religious bigotry against gay people.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Roses

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1641 on: July 01, 2020, 09:10:27 AM »
No you are missing the point. I was taking it to something of an extreme. My point is you don't get to decide to be able to discriminate without any repercussions. If you want to discriminate on religious grounds then you have to allow others to discriminate on their own defined terms,if you don't allow that you are ....guess what..... discriminating against them.

Religion is not a "get out of jail  free" card to be played when you want to uphold centuries of religious bigotry against gay people.

Good comment.
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Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1642 on: July 01, 2020, 09:21:44 AM »
No, except for some very limited conscience clauses for conservative religious people.

I'm presuming you mean religious institutions - churches, mosques - rather than individuals?

O.
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Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1643 on: July 01, 2020, 09:23:06 AM »
Except in the matter in question it is more a case of not acting.

Refusing specific groups or classes of people is an active choice.

O.
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SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1644 on: July 01, 2020, 10:10:54 AM »
I'm presuming you mean religious institutions - churches, mosques - rather than individuals?

O.
Yes. Not sure, tbh, about whether B&B owners should be allowed to refuse a gay couple a double bed - they certainly shouldn't be allowed to refuse them altogether, and I've never suggested otherwise, despite the wilful misunderstanding of some posters - but there should be limited allowance for religious bodies to discriminate against women in the priesthood (or equivalent - minsters, Imams, Rabbis, etc). However, the C of E, as I've said before, has gone much to far in pandering to the misogyny of 'Backward in Bigotry'.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Nearly Sane

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1645 on: July 01, 2020, 10:13:40 AM »
Yes. Not sure, tbh, about whether B&B owners should be allowed to refuse a gay couple a double bed - they certainly shouldn't be allowed to refuse them altogether, and I've never suggested otherwise, despite the wilful misunderstanding of some posters - but there should be limited allowance for religious bodies to discriminate against women in the priesthood (or equivalent - minsters, Imams, Rabbis, etc). However, the C of E, as I've said before, has gone much to far in pandering to the misogyny of 'Backward in Bigotry'.
It's the fact that you want to give rights to individuals to treat homosexual people as second class citizens that you have been picked up on, no matter how much you wrongfully whinge about 'wilful misunderstandings'.

Outrider

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1646 on: July 01, 2020, 10:25:32 AM »
Yes. Not sure, tbh, about whether B&B owners should be allowed to refuse a gay couple a double bed - they certainly shouldn't be allowed to refuse them altogether, and I've never suggested otherwise, despite the wilful misunderstanding of some posters - but there should be limited allowance for religious bodies to discriminate against women in the priesthood (or equivalent - minsters, Imams, Rabbis, etc). However, the C of E, as I've said before, has gone much to far in pandering to the misogyny of 'Backward in Bigotry'.

I'm against religious organisations being able to discriminate, but I understand the argument for it.  The B&B owners it's a clear-cut no, for me - that's not a religious activity, that's a business.  You can argue whether Churches are running as businesses too much, but they are certainly actively conducting religious activity at least part of the time.  Once you allow them the right to discriminate you run into all sorts of knock-on problems - is a Catholic school a religious or educational enterprise, and should they be allowed to discriminate against gay teachers, for instance.

A B&B, though, no matter how devoted/fervent/rabidly dogmatic the owners is not an expression of their religion, and so doesn't get the exemption.  The depth of somebody's belief is not the measure, it's the nature of their activity - if their belief system prevents them from behaving in a manner that's acceptable to broader society that's their issue in exactly the same way that a murderous psychopath, a misogynistic rapist or a racist thug needs to moderate their internal beliefs in order to accommodate the social contract we all work under.

O.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1647 on: July 01, 2020, 10:29:16 AM »
Steve, you wrote:

Quote
I don't support the prejudice against you (or anyone). I do, within narrow limits, support the right of people to be prejudiced, which is not the same thing.

I think this is the bit that is confusing me, and possibly others.

If you don't support prejudice against me, how can you support the right of people to be prejudiced against me, if they are then able to act on that prejudice by refusing myself and my partner a double bed?

What you appear to be saying is I am not prejudiced, but I recognise the rights of others to discriminate against gay people.

Is this really what you mean?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

SteveH

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1648 on: July 01, 2020, 10:38:58 AM »
Steve, you wrote:

I think this is the bit that is confusing me, and possibly others.

If you don't support prejudice against me, how can you support the right of people to be prejudiced against me, if they are then able to act on that prejudice by refusing myself and my partner a double bed?

What you appear to be saying is I am not prejudiced, but I recognise the rights of others to discriminate against gay people.

Is this really what you mean?
I've made it perfectly clear more than once that I don't think people should be allowed to discriminate in practise, but they should be allowed to be prejudiced, and to express their obnoxious opinions, within limits that already exist. Maybe the B&B owners should not be allowed to refuse a double bed, but I still think the gay couple who asked for one were wilful trouble-makers, out for a bit of publicity. They knew in advance of the views and policy of the B&B owners.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Spud

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Re: Using the Bible as an excuse for bigotry
« Reply #1649 on: July 01, 2020, 10:57:40 AM »
No - both cases involve a restriction in the services offered (certain type of bed or medical treatment) due to the prejudices of the service provider.
That is true, but it is also true that one causes harm, the other does not.

I read that the B&B owners are still doing what they did before, but in a non-profit way, and are allowed to decline a room if they choose to. It occurs to me that if religious organizations are non-profit organizations, the same would apply to them?
It seems hard on the BnB owners to take away their means of paying the bills in the basis of a rather drastic change in the law, but it is possible that the benefit to the gay community outweighs this.