Author Topic: Science helps in understanding Spirituality  (Read 3109 times)

Sriram

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Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« on: October 28, 2019, 06:55:39 AM »
Hi everyone,

Science, in spite of being materialistic, has in recent decades made discoveries that point to grey areas that could overlap with Spiritual realities. There are some areas where this happens and which could help in understanding spiritual aspects. I have pointed out some of them here. Not exhaustive by any means.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2019/10/19/science-helps-in-understanding-spirituality/

Cheers.

Sriram

 

Outrider

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2019, 08:22:41 AM »
OK, so...

Anthropic Principle, as you've espoused, being based upon the fallacy of 'fine tuning' is on rocky ground at best.  The unwarranted presumptions in the fine tuning argument are well established.

Quantum Mechanics - the misinterpretation here of the 'observer' is also well-established. There is no requirement for an observer to be conscious in order for a wave-function to collapse.  Evidence of this is readily available every time we look up at the stars and see light twinkling.  You may suggest that our looking is what causes the wave-function to collapse so that we can see, but the twinkling is caused by interactions with the atmosphere on the way through, waveforms that have to have already collapsed during the interactions; are those ozone molecules 'conscious'?

Evolution - design is not evolution, the two are very, very different.  That design can, at times, involve an iterative modelling element does parallel the natural selection element of the current model of evolution, but design is not a random variation on prior success, it's a deliberate researched attempt at progress.  Most importantly, though, is the misunderstanding that evolution is a process from simple to complex and one of development.  Evolution can move towards simplicity if that's what's of benefit in the instant, there is no overarching framework to evolution with 'development' to somewhere as a goal.

Artificial Intelligence - evolved intelligence will almost certainly diverge from artificial intelligence in some ways, but there's nothing in either that seems to require the supposition of 'soul/spirit/atma'.  Whilst it's true that any potential artificial intelligence will not have invented itself, neither did we 'invent' us - we emerged from the iterative process of evolution.  You say that 'If automatons can behave like humans, we cannot conclude that we are also automatons!' - we perhaps cannot prove, but it's not an unreasonable supposition based upon the evidence.  If two things manifest the same behaviours in response to similar inputs, why would we presume (in the absence of any other evidence) that there are qualitatively different internal processes going on? It's possible, but you need a reason to presume it, not just the possibility.

Spectrum - I'd agree, to an extent, that the human tendency - or, at least, the Western cultural tendency, perhaps - to classify into rigidly defined 'boxes' is increasingly something that the natural sciences are having to undo.  Species classificiations, with clearly demarked and defined boundaries are not always the practical reality.  However, accepting that biological classifications often fall on a continuum is not sufficient to warrant claims of 'spirit' - saying the line between two species of birds is actually more blurred than was originally thought is not the same as suggesting, therefore, that phoenixes are real.

O.
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Stranger

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2019, 01:49:20 PM »
Science, in spite of being materialistic, has in recent decades made discoveries that point to grey areas that could overlap with Spiritual realities. There are some areas where this happens and which could help in understanding spiritual aspects.

What would actually help is if you could be bothered to get a proper understanding of the science you want to talk about, you might even have something to say about it if you did, instead of making endless mistakes.

Just for starters...

The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is not the same as consciousness causes collapse. The Copenhagen interpretation does not involve consciousness. There is exactly zero evidence that consciousness has any significance in quantum mechanics.

The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is a specific mechanism that applies to replicators with inheritance and variation. Anything else that you might apply the word evolution to is not the same thing. Of course you could apply the idea of memes to things like product design, philosophy, culture, and so on, but the analogy is somewhat controversial and memes are something else that you seem to have misunderstood.
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Sriram

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2019, 05:06:30 AM »
OK, so...

Anthropic Principle, as you've espoused, being based upon the fallacy of 'fine tuning' is on rocky ground at best.  The unwarranted presumptions in the fine tuning argument are well established.

Quantum Mechanics - the misinterpretation here of the 'observer' is also well-established. There is no requirement for an observer to be conscious in order for a wave-function to collapse.  Evidence of this is readily available every time we look up at the stars and see light twinkling.  You may suggest that our looking is what causes the wave-function to collapse so that we can see, but the twinkling is caused by interactions with the atmosphere on the way through, waveforms that have to have already collapsed during the interactions; are those ozone molecules 'conscious'?

Evolution - design is not evolution, the two are very, very different.  That design can, at times, involve an iterative modelling element does parallel the natural selection element of the current model of evolution, but design is not a random variation on prior success, it's a deliberate researched attempt at progress.  Most importantly, though, is the misunderstanding that evolution is a process from simple to complex and one of development.  Evolution can move towards simplicity if that's what's of benefit in the instant, there is no overarching framework to evolution with 'development' to somewhere as a goal.

Artificial Intelligence - evolved intelligence will almost certainly diverge from artificial intelligence in some ways, but there's nothing in either that seems to require the supposition of 'soul/spirit/atma'.  Whilst it's true that any potential artificial intelligence will not have invented itself, neither did we 'invent' us - we emerged from the iterative process of evolution.  You say that 'If automatons can behave like humans, we cannot conclude that we are also automatons!' - we perhaps cannot prove, but it's not an unreasonable supposition based upon the evidence.  If two things manifest the same behaviours in response to similar inputs, why would we presume (in the absence of any other evidence) that there are qualitatively different internal processes going on? It's possible, but you need a reason to presume it, not just the possibility.

Spectrum - I'd agree, to an extent, that the human tendency - or, at least, the Western cultural tendency, perhaps - to classify into rigidly defined 'boxes' is increasingly something that the natural sciences are having to undo.  Species classificiations, with clearly demarked and defined boundaries are not always the practical reality.  However, accepting that biological classifications often fall on a continuum is not sufficient to warrant claims of 'spirit' - saying the line between two species of birds is actually more blurred than was originally thought is not the same as suggesting, therefore, that phoenixes are real.

O.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe   

Stephen Hawking says  "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."

2. Stars twinkling has nothing to do with this issue.  Please refer to my thread on Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser experiments. Observation changes the way particles behave and maybe even changes past events. 

3. Evolution has resulted in greater complexity. No doubt about that.  Why should complexity arise when organisms can survive just a easily when they are simple? Clearly not due to 'survival' requirements. The answer science has is 'random variations'.   This is a non answer.  Refer to Donald Hoffman's video in my thread on Nature of reality.

4. AI has developed due to directed evolution of computer technology. No doubt about that. If Artificial Intelligence can develop through Intelligent intervention in the process of evolution (of technology), it is enough reason to believe that Human Intelligence could also have developed in a similar way.

5. Spectrum is a natural phenomenon in all aspects of life. No reason to believe that it cannot extend beyond human mind and psychology.

Outrider

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2019, 09:15:11 AM »
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe   

Stephen Hawking says  "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the electric charge of the electron and the ratio of the masses of the proton and the electron. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life."

"Seem".  He goes on to list many of the reasons why we can't presume that this is evidence of a designed reality, and to explain why it may not be significant.

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2. Stars twinkling has nothing to do with this issue.  Please refer to my thread on Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser experiments. Observation changes the way particles behave and maybe even changes past events.

Twinkling has everything to do with this - 'observation' in this sense does not require a conscious observer, it requires any physical process where the result of that wave function collapse is important.

Quote
3. Evolution has resulted in greater complexity. No doubt about that.  Why should complexity arise when organisms can survive just a easily when they are simple? Clearly not due to 'survival' requirements. The answer science has is 'random variations'.   This is a non answer.  Refer to Donald Hoffman's video in my thread on Nature of reality.

Evolution, writ large, has resulted in increased complexity because it started from absolute simplicity - it had no option but to increase complexity.  At any given moment, though, there is no overall drive inherent in evolution to increase complexity; at any given evolutionary moment the better fit may be a simpler organism, which is why there are billions upon billions of 'simpler' organisms on Earth for each 'more complex' one.

Quote
4. AI has developed due to directed evolution of computer technology. No doubt about that. If Artificial Intelligence can develop through Intelligent intervention in the process of evolution (of technology), it is enough reason to believe that Human Intelligence could also have developed in a similar way.

Could have, yes.  All you need do is find the notes within the programming that the programmer left as script marks to whomever followed him up, or a design log, or  kickstarter looking for funding.  You can't presume 'is' from 'isn't impossible'.

Quote
5. Spectrum is a natural phenomenon in all aspects of life. No reason to believe that it cannot extend beyond human mind and psychology.

Most aspects of lift, yes.  The reason to think it might not extend beyond human mind and psychology is because there is no reason to think that there is anything beyond those.  What is 'bone' and what is 'cartilage' in the human body varies at different ages and times, and to a small degree between ethnic groups, but that doesn't mean in the spectrum of bone to cartilage that we can suddenly presume everyone has a third leg.

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2019, 10:18:58 AM »
2. Stars twinkling has nothing to do with this issue.  Please refer to my thread on Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser experiments. Observation changes the way particles behave and maybe even changes past events. 

And there is still exactly zero evidence that consciousness has anything to do with how measurements affect the quantum state. In fact decoherence (which is just about interaction with the wider environment and nothing to do with observations in particular) partially explains 'collapse'. 

3. Evolution has resulted in greater complexity. No doubt about that.  Why should complexity arise when organisms can survive just a easily when they are simple? Clearly not due to 'survival' requirements. The answer science has is 'random variations'.   This is a non answer.

As Outrider has already explained, complexity varies with evolution but since 'life' (replicators) started out as simple as it could be, an increase was inevitable. Also your generalisation that organisms can survive just a easily when they are simple is simply not true all the time, it depends on the environment and what mutations actually take place. You also have to understand that a population's environment includes other species, most notably those it eats and those that eat it, so you can get evolutionary arms races.
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jeremyp

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2019, 01:18:08 PM »

Quantum Mechanics - the misinterpretation here of the 'observer' is also well-established. There is no requirement for an observer to be conscious in order for a wave-function to collapse.  Evidence of this is readily available every time we look up at the stars and see light twinkling.  You may suggest that our looking is what causes the wave-function to collapse so that we can see, but the twinkling is caused by interactions with the atmosphere on the way through, waveforms that have to have already collapsed during the interactions; are those ozone molecules 'conscious'?

Isn't wave forms collapsing an artefact of the Copenhagen interpretation? In, for example, the Many Worlds hypothesis there is no collapsing of the wave form.

Quote
Evolution - design is not evolution, the two are very, very different.  That design can, at times, involve an iterative modelling element does parallel the natural selection element of the current model of evolution, but design is not a random variation on prior success, it's a deliberate researched attempt at progress.  Most importantly, though, is the misunderstanding that evolution is a process from simple to complex and one of development.  Evolution can move towards simplicity if that's what's of benefit in the instant, there is no overarching framework to evolution with 'development' to somewhere as a goal.
Evolution is not random variation on past success, or at least, it is not just random variation on past success. There is a selection process but the selection process is not consciously driven.

By the way, something the creationists get wrong frequently is that complexity is not a feature of good design: simplicity is.  Good designers do not embellish their work with unnecessary features (except for decorative purposes).

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Stranger

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2019, 01:42:08 PM »
Isn't wave forms collapsing an artefact of the Copenhagen interpretation? In, for example, the Many Worlds hypothesis there is no collapsing of the wave form.

Whether wave function collapse is considered to happen, and what it actually means if it does, depends on the interpretation but it is far from unique to Copenhagen (see Interpretations of quantum mechanics - Comparison). In fact strictly, Copenhagen is about knowledge of the system rather than what's "out there". Sriram is confusing it with another interpretation entirely (the consciousness causes collapse or von Neumann–Wigner interpretation).
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Sriram

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2019, 05:09:41 AM »
"Seem".  He goes on to list many of the reasons why we can't presume that this is evidence of a designed reality, and to explain why it may not be significant.

Twinkling has everything to do with this - 'observation' in this sense does not require a conscious observer, it requires any physical process where the result of that wave function collapse is important.

Evolution, writ large, has resulted in increased complexity because it started from absolute simplicity - it had no option but to increase complexity.  At any given moment, though, there is no overall drive inherent in evolution to increase complexity; at any given evolutionary moment the better fit may be a simpler organism, which is why there are billions upon billions of 'simpler' organisms on Earth for each 'more complex' one.

Could have, yes.  All you need do is find the notes within the programming that the programmer left as script marks to whomever followed him up, or a design log, or  kickstarter looking for funding.  You can't presume 'is' from 'isn't impossible'.

Most aspects of lift, yes.  The reason to think it might not extend beyond human mind and psychology is because there is no reason to think that there is anything beyond those.  What is 'bone' and what is 'cartilage' in the human body varies at different ages and times, and to a small degree between ethnic groups, but that doesn't mean in the spectrum of bone to cartilage that we can suddenly presume everyone has a third leg.

O.


1. You are clutching at straws. Many eminent scientists accept that the universe is fine tuned for life. 

2. Twinkling has nothing to do with the true nature of a star. It is an atmospheric effect.  ::) On the other hand, a particle behaves like a wave depending on observation. Its actual nature changes.  This has been established beyond doubt. I am surprised you are unaware.

3. What do you mean...'there is no option but to increase complexity'??!!   ??? That's the most absurd answer I have heard yet.  Complexity increases only because  there is a need for it. Survival does not need complexity...so there must be some other purpose for it. That is, after rejecting the 'random' explanation of science.



 

Stranger

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2019, 07:32:07 AM »
1. You are clutching at straws. Many eminent scientists accept that the universe is fine tuned for life. 

And many don't. In fact, nobody really knows because we have no context, no tested theory of everything, and no means to know if this 'universe' is one of many or not.

2. Twinkling has nothing to do with the true nature of a star. It is an atmospheric effect.  ::) On the other hand, a particle behaves like a wave depending on observation. Its actual nature changes.  This has been established beyond doubt. I am surprised you are unaware.

It depends on measurement - and there is still zero evidence of any link to consciousness.

3. What do you mean...'there is no option but to increase complexity'??!!   ??? That's the most absurd answer I have heard yet.  Complexity increases only because  there is a need for it. Survival does not need complexity...so there must be some other purpose for it. That is, after rejecting the 'random' explanation of science.

The problem here is that you don't understand the basics so are making silly mistakes. The generalisation that "survival does not need complexity" is simply not true all the time.

If you have populations of very simple organisms, then random changes are most likely to increase complexity and some of those changes will be advantageous in the context of the environment, in that instance said complexity is needed for survival because those organisms without the change will be at a disadvantage.

Survival can depend on loss of complexity as well, but as the first replicators were probably about the simplest possible to be viable at all, variation only had one direction to go in.

This isn't all that hard. Why do always refuse to even try to learn about evolution? Why the stubborn, self-imposed ignorance?
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Outrider

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2019, 09:07:16 AM »
1. You are clutching at straws. Many eminent scientists accept that the universe is fine tuned for life.

But, importantly, they don't write up scientific papers suggesting it, it's a personal belief not a scientific claim.  The universe is not finely tuned for life, we are finely tuned for the small section of the extremely hostile universe in which we've evolved. 

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2. Twinkling has nothing to do with the true nature of a star.

I wasn't aware I suggested that it was?

Quote
On the other hand, a particle behaves like a wave depending on observation. Its actual nature changes.  This has been established beyond doubt. I am surprised you are unaware.

No, you've fundamentally misunderstood the point of quantum physics - the point is that quantum events are neither particles nor waves, they are quanta that can be thought of as behaving like particles in some circumstances to make the maths easier, and can be thought of like waves in other circumstances to make other mathematical modelling easier.  We discovered the two different aspects at different times in different circumstances and spent a considerable period of time presuming they were two different phenomena, rather than just different ways of looking at the same thing.

Quote
3. What do you mean...'there is no option but to increase complexity'??!!   ??? That's the most absurd answer I have heard yet.

The earliest life was as basic as it's possible to get - from there, the only option over time is an overall increase in complexity, because less complexity is not viable life.

Quote
Complexity increases only because  there is a need for it. Survival does not need complexity...so there must be some other purpose for it.

Survival is not the only influence on natural selection; competition is also a selector, and if complexity, at a given point, increases the competitive advantage then it will breed through the line more often.

Quote
That is, after rejecting the 'random' explanation of science.

Random isn't the explanation of science, random is the observation of the phenomenon.  The theory of evolution by natural selection of random variations is the scientific explanation for how one observed phenomenon (random variation in offspring) feeds into other observed phenomena (the geographic and taxonomic spread of biologically linked organisms on Earth).

O.
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ippy

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2019, 01:53:51 PM »
I like the bit at the end of your link where Emily knows how to make £7472 per hour, on thinking about it there could be some form of spiritual connection to the way Emily's making so much money something else where we haven't got the science that's able to prove there is a wooish connection yet.

(I don't know about India but here in the UK there's an advert tagged on to the end of your link where a woman is promoting how she is making £7472 per hour and wishes to share with us how we could be doing something similar).

Regards & cheers, ippy.

Sriram

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2019, 02:36:56 PM »

If you mean my blog site...I don't see any ad!! And I am not getting any money for it.... ! Hmmm  >:(

Nearly Sane

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2019, 02:40:14 PM »
If you mean my blog site...I don't see any ad!! And I am not getting any money for it.... ! Hmmm  >:(
Often in cases like this the advert is based on the international site we are accessing and is how they control costs - nothing to do with you, Sriram.

Sriram

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2019, 03:08:01 PM »

Well...ok...   :)

ippy

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2019, 08:06:27 PM »
Well...ok...   :)

I guessed that the ad might not be on your Indian service Sriram and that's why the bracketed explanation and thought it would be obvious to most, it looks like you got it.

Regards, ippy.
 

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2019, 09:21:17 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
1. You are clutching at straws. Many eminent scientists accept that the universe is fine tuned for life.

You do realise that the fine tuning “argument” is just circular reasoning I hope?
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Walter

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2019, 11:12:55 PM »
Sriram,

You do realise that the fine tuning “argument” is just circular reasoning I hope?
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Sriram

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2019, 06:02:29 AM »


I am surprised how indifferent you people are to such things and how easily you dismiss them from your world view......

The old science mindset is clearly very complacent and very sure of itself. Always a problem when people are cocksure of something.

Stranger

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2019, 07:31:25 AM »
I am surprised how indifferent you people are to such things and how easily you dismiss them from your world view......

The old science mindset is clearly very complacent and very sure of itself. Always a problem when people are cocksure of something.

Speaking of being cocksure, perhaps you should look a little closer to home. People here keep on pointing out problems both with your understanding and the basic logic of the arguments you attempt to make.

It's very easy to dismiss something that exhibits obvious misunderstandings of the subject matter and errors in reasoning (fallacies). If you took a bit more notice and learned from your mistakes, perhaps it wouldn't be so easy to dismiss what you have to say....
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2019, 09:54:47 AM »
Sriram,

Quote
I am surprised how indifferent you people are to such things and how easily you dismiss them from your world view......

The old science mindset is clearly very complacent and very sure of itself. Always a problem when people are cocksure of something.

Standard Sriram operating procedure:

1. Post a series of statements and claims

2. Receive explanations for why those statements and claims are wrong

3. Ignore the explanations

4. Accuse the people who provide the explanations of having the wrong "worldview", being "complacent" etc.

5. Repeat Step 1

What does this arrogant ignorance say about you do you think?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 12:22:24 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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ippy

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2019, 02:05:00 PM »

I am surprised how indifferent you people are to such things and how easily you dismiss them from your world view......

The old science mindset is clearly very complacent and very sure of itself. Always a problem when people are cocksure of something.

What worries me is that you seem at times to be one of the more enlightened people posting on this forum but you're obviously unable to reject woo, in fact it seems to me you'd rather embrace unsupportable ideas, why?

Regards, ippy.

Sriram

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2019, 03:31:16 PM »
What worries me is that you seem at times to be one of the more enlightened people posting on this forum but you're obviously unable to reject woo, in fact it seems to me you'd rather embrace unsupportable ideas, why?

Regards, ippy.


Thanks for your kind words, ippy!  :)

If you have some respect for my views maybe the same respect ought to be given to my views on matters related to spirituality also......!  ;)

But its not just me...some very eminent and other professional scientists and thinkers share the same fate. Newton, Galileo, Max Planck, Niels Bohr,  John Wheeler, Chalmers, Sam Parnia, Peter Fenwick, Donald Hoffman, Jim Tucker....... and many others. All of whom I have quoted on this board but none of which has had any effect whatsoever!

The same disregard from people here, for anything other than the old science and its standard model... 

So, I understand why you don't understand...!!  :D

Outrider

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2019, 05:03:44 PM »

I am surprised how indifferent you people are to such things and how easily you dismiss them from your world view......

The old science mindset is clearly very complacent and very sure of itself. Always a problem when people are cocksure of something.

We are asking for more convincing evidence than you appear to be providing - we aren't saying you're wrong, we're saying that (currently perhaps) your explanation does not fit the available evidence as simply as other explanations.

You, on the other hand, want to dismiss the collective established wisdom of the single most successful ongoing knowledge-enhancement programme in human history, the body of established scientific theory.  One of use might be 'cocksure of something', but I'm pretty sure it isn't us.

O.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Science helps in understanding Spirituality
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2019, 05:11:40 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
But its not just me...some very eminent and other professional scientists and thinkers share the same fate. Newton, Galileo, Max Planck, Niels Bohr,  John Wheeler, Chalmers, Sam Parnia, Peter Fenwick, Donald Hoffman, Jim Tucker....... and many others. All of whom I have quoted on this board but none of which has had any effect whatsoever!

Another day, same old mistakes...

You may or may not be right about what these people believe or believed, but NONE OF THOSE BELIEFS HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE SCIENCE THEY DID.

Not sure why you find this so hard to grasp, but hey-ho.
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