Author Topic: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'  (Read 1083 times)

Nearly Sane

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'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« on: October 30, 2019, 09:12:46 AM »
Well that won't really be the case until the second phase is published that the truth will have a chance to be understood. I can understand why they have produced them in 2 phases - the public inquiry on the Clutha pub tragedy is only just published and that was 6 years ago, but the publication in this way has given a narrative that it was all the Fire Service's fault.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50230188

Roses

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2019, 01:40:12 PM »
I think the fire brigade was in a difficult position. Yes they made the wrong call, but if they had told everyone to evacuate the building, and lives had been lost because of that decision they would have been criticised for that too. One mustn't forget the bravery of the firefighters who risked their lives rescuing the residents.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 01:56:13 PM by Littleroses »
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Outrider

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2019, 01:54:34 PM »
I conduct fire risk assessments in those sorts of buildings on a regular basis, and they fire brigade did not make the wrong decision when they arrived.  The building was designed to have a stay-put policy in place; the fire brigade identified that and operated on that understanding.  The criticism in the report is that they failed to over-ride that decision quickly enough when it became apparent that the fire separations within the building were not operating sufficiently - for a number of different reasons, nothing to do with the fire brigade or their activities.

That's arguably correct, and there are undoubtedly learnings to come out of the incident, but the enquiry structure has been deliberately structured to throw the firefighters under the bus.

The fire brigade shouldn't have needed to be in that position in the first place, and as yet we've heard nothing about why that is.  We've seen nothing on why the investigatory arm of the fire and rescue service is so significantly under-strength that the ongoing inspections of this building weren't in place, we've not seen anything on why the substandard cladding arrangement was passed fit, we've seen nothing on why the internal fire protection measures within the building weren't adequately maintained, we've seen nothing on why the learnings of the previous high-rise fires haven't been adequately implemented, we've seen nothing on why there's still no obligation to install sprinklers in these buildings...

It's a despicable piece of political deception, and it risks fundamentally undermining the entire enquiry and leaving us ten years up the road sweeping up the ashes of another multiple-death high-rise fire looking for another scapegoat.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2019, 02:02:05 PM »
I conduct fire risk assessments in those sorts of buildings on a regular basis, and they fire brigade did not make the wrong decision when they arrived.  The building was designed to have a stay-put policy in place; the fire brigade identified that and operated on that understanding.  The criticism in the report is that they failed to over-ride that decision quickly enough when it became apparent that the fire separations within the building were not operating sufficiently - for a number of different reasons, nothing to do with the fire brigade or their activities.

That's arguably correct, and there are undoubtedly learnings to come out of the incident, but the enquiry structure has been deliberately structured to throw the firefighters under the bus.

The fire brigade shouldn't have needed to be in that position in the first place, and as yet we've heard nothing about why that is.  We've seen nothing on why the investigatory arm of the fire and rescue service is so significantly under-strength that the ongoing inspections of this building weren't in place, we've not seen anything on why the substandard cladding arrangement was passed fit, we've seen nothing on why the internal fire protection measures within the building weren't adequately maintained, we've seen nothing on why the learnings of the previous high-rise fires haven't been adequately implemented, we've seen nothing on why there's still no obligation to install sprinklers in these buildings...

It's a despicable piece of political deception, and it risks fundamentally undermining the entire enquiry and leaving us ten years up the road sweeping up the ashes of another multiple-death high-rise fire looking for another scapegoat.

O.
Does that excuse the lack of liaison between the emergency services on the night? Does that excuse the lack of update to any guidelines based on what happened at Lakanal? Yes, I agree that the process has thrown the fire service under a bus, but as already mentioned given the length of tine to produce public inquiries in this country, that's understandable - if an indication that we need to improve how we do this - see the comment as regards the Clutha tragedy which was way simpler than this.

We have a problem with a media seeking an easy narrative, we have problems with the approach here , and the leaking and reporting from it is reprehensible but I don't see that you can say the phase findings themselves are 'political deception'

Outrider

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2019, 03:28:43 PM »
Does that excuse the lack of liaison between the emergency services on the night?

What does that is the lack of sufficient staff down-time to conduct large-scale practical exercises of major emergencies - LSED are down 55% in the past ten years in London, and between 25% and 45% across the rest of the country because unit up-time has increased.

Quote
Does that excuse the lack of update to any guidelines based on what happened at Lakanal?

The Coronor's report into Lakanal didn't include any recommendations for the fire brigade; however, after Lakanal the LFB did institute a working group on high-rise building safety involving the London Mayor's office, London Councils, National Social Housing Fire STrategy Group, Association of Residential Letting Agents and other groups.

Quote
Yes, I agree that the process has thrown the fire service under a bus, but as already mentioned given the length of tine to produce public inquiries in this country, that's understandable - if an indication that we need to improve how we do this - see the comment as regards the Clutha tragedy which was way simpler than this.

It's not 'understandable' it's cynical. 

Quote
We have a problem with a media seeking an easy narrative, we have problems with the approach here , and the leaking and reporting from it is reprehensible but I don't see that you can say the phase findings themselves are 'political deception'.

The report was split into 'phases' and the emergency service response was targetted first, deliberately, to throw them out for the dogs whilst the root cause analysis lingers in the background.  What is the point in coming up with recommendations for the emergency services based upon the results of this incident if the deeper root-cause analysis change the fundamental presumptions - then they'll need to conduct a further analysis of the emergency service response in order to update again.  Remedial actions need to start at the highest priority, and therefore investigations need to prioritise root cause analysis and start implementing actions at the strategic level before determining that an operational response should be within that strategy.

Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005, Schedule 1, Part 3

"The principles are—

(a)avoiding risks;
(b)evaluating the risks which cannot be avoided;
(c)combating the risks at source;
(d)adapting to technical progress;
(e)replacing the dangerous by the non-dangerous or less dangerous;
(f)developing a coherent overall prevention policy which covers technology, organisation of work and the influence of factors relating to the working environment;
(g)giving collective protective measures priority over individual protective measures; and
(h)giving appropriate instructions to employees."

At best, the fire brigade response comes in at stage g - all of the other elements should take priority, as they are part of preventing the outbreak of fire.  Dependent upon what these priorities are, and how they are interpreted into the expectations of building design and regulation will determine what the fire brigade response will be.  If the later stages of this report ever see the light of day, they are likely to change at least some of the regulations around these preventive measures, and that will mean the fire brigade needing to update their procedures again.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2019, 03:34:35 PM »
Do you have any evidence that the choice of phases was cynical - or does it just feel cynical to you? Also note, I said the idea of splitting it into phases was understandable - or would you rather everything was delayed as per the Clutha inquiry?

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2019, 03:02:32 PM »

While I have a limbo low opinion of Rees-Mogg, I'm not sure that this isn't a case of misspeaking.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50302573

Roses

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2019, 03:13:09 PM »
While I have a limbo low opinion of Rees-Mogg, I'm not sure that this isn't a case of misspeaking.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-50302573

I can't stand the man, but it is possible that he meant with the benefit of hindsight people should have ignored the advice of the fire brigade.
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Robbie

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2019, 03:54:44 PM »
I think so too but honestly wonder who on earth advises these people on speaking to the press or public. Phraseology is so important.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2019, 06:40:37 PM »
I think so too but honestly wonder who on earth advises these people on speaking to the press or public. Phraseology is so important.
Andrew Bridgen, Tory MP, has just been on Radio 4 PM saying he thinks Rees Mogg meant that he would have ignored the advice at the time because he is clever and you want clever people running the country. So he is in effect saying that Rees Mogg in retracting and apologising is a clever cowardly liar, and that those that died at Grenfell for following the Fire Services advice were stupid. Just fucking unbelievable

Udayana

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2019, 09:13:07 PM »
Even if Rees Mogg "misspoke", it is the kind of mistake you make when your brain goes to sleep because you really don't give a shit.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2019, 09:23:23 PM »
Even if Rees Mogg "misspoke", it is the kind of mistake you make when your brain goes to sleep because you really don't give a shit.
pretty much. People voting Tory are voting that people who died at Grenfell were stupid.

Roses

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2019, 08:22:29 AM »
pretty much. People voting Tory are voting that people who died at Grenfell were stupid.

No that isn't true, Rees-Mogg is in trouble with his own party according to the news reports I heard on Radio 4 earlier.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2019, 08:50:59 AM »
No that isn't true, Rees-Mogg is in trouble with his own party according to the news reports I heard on Radio 4 earlier.

He might be in trouble with his own party, but only because he let the mask slip. Not because they disagree with his statement. See also Andrew Bridgen. See also James (not so) Cleverly being ripped to shreds by Piers Morgan of all people this morning. Cleverly could not admit the the doctored footage of Starmer was fake news even though a more honourable man in their party could - Mercer.

A party full of people who think they have the right to rule and will take some dubious measures to ensure that happens. 

*PS having read this it perhaps sits more easily in the GE thread, but crossovers are going to happen, apologies for straying a little.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 08:53:39 AM by Trentvoyager »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Roses

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2019, 08:55:49 AM »
Rees-Mogg's comment hasn't done the Tories any favours, imo.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2019, 10:34:54 AM »
I see Andrew Bridgen has supposedly apologised unreservedly but then said  "Jacob is a leader, he's an authority figure".

"What he's actually saying is that he would have given a better decision than the authority figures who gave that advice."

Which isn't an apology, but doubling down.

ippy

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2019, 06:57:11 PM »
I think so too but honestly wonder who on earth advises these people on speaking to the press or public. Phraseology is so important.

You can write things in language that's as plain as a pikestaff and you get the odd one here and there that still can't get it.

Regards, ippy.



Robbie

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Re: 'Grenfell Tower fire report 'gives victims the truth', says PM'
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2019, 10:52:10 PM »
True. What is perfectly clear to the speaker is often as clear as mud to the listener. Reading the text afterwards helps, there's usually a media/newspaper article on anything considered important.

We can read several versions in the press the next day, each giving a different emphasis.....
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