Author Topic: UK election 2019  (Read 29176 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #200 on: November 21, 2019, 06:15:01 PM »
The problem with Tory policy on law and order is that if increasing police numbers is part of the solution then their policy caused it in part in the first place.
I agree. And even if they increase the funding to give back some of the police numbers they cut that contributed to the rise in crime, there is a good chance that people still won't be actually prosecuted for crimes. This newspaper report says "Almost 92 per cent of offences do not result in perpetrators being charged or summonsed in England and Wales, with the number of offences taken to court dropping by almost 30,000 in a year.....Figures published by the Home Office show in the year ending September 2018 only 8.2 per cent of 5 million recorded crimes were prosecuted, down from 9.5 per cent the previous year."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/crime-statistics-uk-justice-prosecution-rates-rape-victims-disclosure-police-funding-a8747191.html

There seems to be a reducing deterrent effect on people inclined towards committing criminal acts, if the local anecdotal evidence is taken into account.
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I also don't think that getting tough is necessarily the answer and coming from a city where stabbings have substantially reduced, and a city where violence has always been an issue, that reduction has not been achieved by toughness but by adaptability.
Not sure what you mean by adaptability?


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UKIP and the Tories to some extent conflated the ECHR with all things EU in an attempt to confuse people. I don't think the Brexit party is real.
Part of the Brexit vote seemed to be a protest vote by sections of the public against certain judicial decisions that were perceived to the values of a liberal elite that did not have to experience the consequences of those decisions as they were more insulated by their wealth and privilege. Not really sure how to resolve that division in the country that was exacerbated by the economic crisis.

ETA: And these judicial decisions were made by UK courts without it going to the ECHR. The Human Rights Act was passed by Parliament presumably because British MPs supported the values and rights the Act protected. So not the fault of the EU. So even if we left the EU or left the European Convention on HUman Rights our judges would still interpret the existing legislation to uphold those rights under British law,  unless enough MPs are elected who do not support such rights and they pass new legislation revoking the right to family life etc

ETA: Unless it is deemed that the courts are exceeding their remit in their interpretation of law.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/nov/28/european-court-of-human-rights
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 06:26:41 PM by Gabriella »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #201 on: November 21, 2019, 06:18:53 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #202 on: November 22, 2019, 11:19:06 AM »
From the BBC running election commentary

"Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage is beginning his speech in London, where he is setting out the party's election policies.

Mr Farage begins by saying his party is not launching a "manifesto" because "a word association test with manifesto gave the word lie", adding that there have been too many "broken promises" in past election campaigns. "


Strangely, lie is one of the words I associate with Farage

Roses

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #203 on: November 22, 2019, 01:39:07 PM »
From the BBC running election commentary

"Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage is beginning his speech in London, where he is setting out the party's election policies.

Mr Farage begins by saying his party is not launching a "manifesto" because "a word association test with manifesto gave the word lie", adding that there have been too many "broken promises" in past election campaigns. "


Strangely, lie is one of the words I associate with Farage

BIG TME! Every time I see that horrible man on the screen I want to throw something at it. >:(
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 11:20:00 AM by Littleroses »
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Walter

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #204 on: November 22, 2019, 02:19:10 PM »
From the BBC running election commentary

"Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage is beginning his speech in London, where he is setting out the party's election policies.

Mr Farage begins by saying his party is not launching a "manifesto" because "a word association test with manifesto gave the word lie", adding that there have been too many "broken promises" in past election campaigns. "


Strangely, lie is one of the words I associate with Farage
did you know?

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Nearly Sane

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Roses

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #206 on: November 25, 2019, 10:15:47 AM »
Boris in visiting North Wales today, the Welsh dragons should get their knives and forks out take part in a tasty meal, he has plenty of flesh on his bones. ;D ;D ;D
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ippy

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #207 on: November 25, 2019, 12:52:59 PM »
BIG TME! Every time I see that horrible man on the screen I want to through something at it. >:(

All of the main parties promised to honour the result of the 2016 in or out referendum, compared to the position we are now in nearly four years later wouldn't it make that promise a lie, regardless of your opinion of Nigel or Boris, whether they're good or bad men is irrelevant.

Regards, ippy.

Anchorman

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #208 on: November 25, 2019, 01:07:23 PM »
All of the main parties promised to honour the result of the 2016 in or out referendum, compared to the position we are now in nearly four years later wouldn't it make that promise a lie, regardless of your opinion of Nigel or Boris, whether they're good or bad men is irrelevant.

Regards, ippy.
   




The third largest party by members and elected representatives, made no such promise.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

ippy

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #209 on: November 25, 2019, 01:08:53 PM »

Remainer.
   




The third largest party by members and elected representatives, made no such promise.

Roses

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #210 on: November 25, 2019, 01:38:19 PM »
A chip shop owner in South Yorkshire has offered free fish and chips to people who vote for the Brexit party. :evil:  He has been reported to the police as it is illegal to bribe people in this way.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50537324?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics&link_location=live-reporting-story
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SteveH

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #211 on: November 25, 2019, 01:44:12 PM »
A chip shop owner in South Yorkshire has offered free fish and chips to people who vote for the Brexit party. :evil:  He has been reported to the police as it is illegal to bribe people in this way.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50537324?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics&link_location=live-reporting-story
Also pointless. That's why we have secret ballots.
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Roses

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #212 on: November 25, 2019, 01:50:09 PM »
Also pointless. That's why we have secret ballots.

True, I wondered how he would guarantee those claiming a freebie had actually voted for the Brexit mob.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #213 on: November 25, 2019, 02:16:34 PM »
True, I wondered how he would guarantee those claiming a freebie had actually voted for the Brexit mob.
He doesn't have to. He's just giving out free food to everyone if the Brexit party wins in the 2 seats in Barnsley. Nothing about having to actually vote for them.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 02:26:35 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #214 on: November 25, 2019, 02:35:32 PM »
Remainer
Why is that relevant to Anchorman's point?

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #215 on: November 26, 2019, 08:46:23 AM »
Obviously the Chief rabbi has a right to say this, but I can't help feel that the implicit approval of the Tory party is a bit off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50552068

Roses

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #216 on: November 26, 2019, 08:56:31 AM »
Obviously the Chief rabbi has a right to say this, but I can't help feel that the implicit approval of the Tory party is a bit off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50552068

I agree with you. Corbyn has been very remiss in not stamping down much more firmly on anti-Semitism in his party. However, extreme right-wingers are often anti-Semitic too, Hitler wasn't known for his liberal approach to Jews!
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Aruntraveller

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #217 on: November 26, 2019, 09:15:24 AM »
ho hum - so implicit approval of the Tories and their leader who speaks of watermelon smiles and grinning piccaninnies.

I guess some prejudices are more equal than others.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #218 on: November 26, 2019, 09:53:22 AM »
I agree with you. Corbyn has been very remiss in not stamping down much more firmly on anti-Semitism in his party. However, extreme right-wingers are often anti-Semitic too, Hitler wasn't known for his liberal approach to Jews!
I don't think Hitler is the issue here - I think it's the racism in the Tory party.

Outrider

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #219 on: November 26, 2019, 10:12:07 AM »
All of the main parties promised to honour the result of the 2016 in or out referendum, compared to the position we are now in nearly four years later wouldn't it make that promise a lie, regardless of your opinion of Nigel or Boris, whether they're good or bad men is irrelevant.

Regards, ippy.

Not all of them, as has been pointed out; they did so, of course, based on the premise that the election would be conducted fairly and honestly, and it turns out that didn't happen - we'd have even more proof of that if Johnson wasn't suppressing the report into Russian interference in the campaign, of course, but we have sufficient evidence from the financial irregularities in the multiple illegally co-operating Leave campaigns and the demonstrable lies churned out by the likes of Johnson and Farage.

O.
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Udayana

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #220 on: November 26, 2019, 10:56:08 AM »
Obviously the Chief rabbi has a right to say this, but I can't help feel that the implicit approval of the Tory party is a bit off.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50552068

He can express his feelings and of those in the Jewish community who feel similarly, however what he is doing is smearing Corbyn without substantiation. It seems completely partisan.

Where is the evidence that Corbyn is anti-Semitic or has sanctioned anti-Semitism in the Labour party?
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Aruntraveller

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #221 on: November 26, 2019, 11:06:12 AM »
He can express his feelings and of those in the Jewish community who feel similarly, however what he is doing is smearing Corbyn without substantiation. It seems completely partisan.

Where is the evidence that Corbyn is anti-Semitic or has sanctioned anti-Semitism in the Labour party?

There is none.

And it is as you say partisan.

The Tories are never held accountable in the same way.

I am so sick of this election and country.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Outrider

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #222 on: November 26, 2019, 11:08:34 AM »
He can express his feelings and of those in the Jewish community who feel similarly, however what he is doing is smearing Corbyn without substantiation. It seems completely partisan.

Where is the evidence that Corbyn is anti-Semitic or has sanctioned anti-Semitism in the Labour party?

I haven't seen or read the whole speech, but from the parts I've seen it doesn't seem as though he's accusing Corbyn of anti-Semitism himself, but rather of him and the Labour party in general not doing enough to fight anti-Semitism.  It does seem like the media picks up the anti-Semitism claims against Labour a lot more consistently than they pick up the anti-Islam accusations against the Tories - I'm not sure if that's a deliberate move on the part of the media, or if it's a reflection of our greater anxiety regarding the historic treatment of Jews and our current general hostility towards Islam, or a combination of both.

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Udayana

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #223 on: November 26, 2019, 11:28:55 AM »
I haven't seen or read the whole speech, but from the parts I've seen it doesn't seem as though he's accusing Corbyn of anti-Semitism himself, but rather of him and the Labour party in general not doing enough to fight anti-Semitism.  It does seem like the media picks up the anti-Semitism claims against Labour a lot more consistently than they pick up the anti-Islam accusations against the Tories - I'm not sure if that's a deliberate move on the part of the media, or if it's a reflection of our greater anxiety regarding the historic treatment of Jews and our current general hostility towards Islam, or a combination of both.

O.

I was going by the article he wrote for The Times, especially where he says "It is a failure of leadership. A new poison – sanctioned from the top – has taken root in the Labour Party."

There is criticism of actions against anti-Semitism plus a couple of (disputed) figures about cases - but dismisses Labour claims: "The claims that the party is “doing everything” it reasonably can to tackle anti-Jewish racism and that it has “investigated every single case”, are a mendacious fiction"

He then goes on to say:

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Many members of the Jewish community can hardly believe that this is the same party that they called their political home for more than a century. It can no longer claim to be the party of equality and anti-racism.

How far is too far? How complicit in prejudice would a leader of Her Majesty’s opposition have to be to be considered unfit for office? Would associations with those who have incited hatred against Jews be enough? Would describing as “friends” those who endorse the murder of Jews be enough? It seems not.

I expect it is the association between Corbyn and the Palestinian cause and the support for Labour within the Muslim community that is at the heart of this.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Outrider

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #224 on: November 26, 2019, 11:40:57 AM »
I was going by the article he wrote for The Times, especially where he says "It is a failure of leadership. A new poison – sanctioned from the top – has taken root in the Labour Party."

Arguably, he's right.  Of course, I'd also argue that it's part of a general nationalist trend in this country, for which Corbyn isn't particularly complicit (but the likes of Johnson and Farage are), which is evidenced in the general reported rise in racist incidents.

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There is criticism of actions against anti-Semitism plus a couple of (disputed) figures about cases - but dismisses Labour claims: "The claims that the party is “doing everything” it reasonably can to tackle anti-Jewish racism and that it has “investigated every single case”, are a mendacious fiction"

I don't know enough about the internal workings of the Labour to be able to judge that claim, but I do feel that sometimes Corbyn's tendency to buck the absolute confidence that other politicians blithely (and disingenuously) portray doesn't help him in this instance.

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He then goes on to say:
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Many members of the Jewish community can hardly believe that this is the same party that they called their political home for more than a century. It can no longer claim to be the party of equality and anti-racism.

How far is too far? How complicit in prejudice would a leader of Her Majesty’s opposition have to be to be considered unfit for office? Would associations with those who have incited hatred against Jews be enough? Would describing as “friends” those who endorse the murder of Jews be enough? It seems not.

I expect it is the association between Corbyn and the Palestinian cause and the support for Labour within the Muslim community that is at the heart of this.

See, I have a slightly different take on that.  To me, that reads like he doesn't expect anything better from the Tories (and others) but he does feel like he should be able to expect better from Labour - it's a sense of betrayal, rather than a sense of an injustice divorced from any personal history.

Of course, given the political leanings of the current Labour leadership, and the exploits of the current Israeli leadership, a degree of tension in light of the inevitable criticisms of the regime seems unavoidable.

O.
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