Author Topic: UK election 2019  (Read 29268 times)

Outrider

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #250 on: November 27, 2019, 01:40:25 PM »
Jeremy Corbyn was terrible on Andrew Neil last night.  He should have been well-prepared for both anti-Semitism and spending questions.

I thought he was reasonably well-prepared - the problem is that he tries to communicate nuance and complexity, and the modern media doesn't appear to have time for that.

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Painting a life-long campaigner against racism of all stripes as a racist is 1984-level propaganda which is being amplified by the BBC.

Except they weren't doing that - very few people are getting the chance to vote directly for Corby, if they want Corby they're having to vote Labour, and Labour does currently have an issue with anti-Semitism. Sure it's being played up in the press, but it's there at some level, and Labour haven't managed to get a suitable handle on it.

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Meanwhile, the Tories are looking to consolidate executive power if they get a majority at the election:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/tory-manifesto-conservative-boris-johnson-dictator-general-election-brexit-a9216861.html

Sorry to link to an opinion piece but news stories on this real threat are hard to find.  I'm not giving clicks to the Conservative party site.  Given that nobody involved in the Conservative (how ironic) assault on our democracy seems worried about consequences, short or long term, I'm getting more and more concerned.

I fear the country as a whole is shift to the right, at least in the short term - which at least in part I think is down to the New Labour abandonment of the mid-left in favour of a centrist position which shifted the balance point to the right and which we've not managed to reassert.

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And one more thing - people on £80,000+ a year griping about paying an extra £20 a month in tax, when hundreds of people died of poverty on our streets last year and 19% of our population live in ABSOLUTE poverty

Where do you get the figure of 19% of the populace living in absolute poverty? Relative poverty, perhaps, although that's emblematic of the inequality in income distribution and wealth, but absolute poverty is a different measure, and unless they've massively changed the reference points they're using recently I'd be highly surprised to see it that high.

In recent times, with increases in the minimum wage and generally high employment, even relative poverty should be in decline, although both those figures and the concept of minimum wage need a serious review in light of the increased desire for companies to operate on a 'gig economy' model of not actually employing people.

All of which is not to disagree with your underlying point that the guy on Question Time (?) suggesting that he wasn't in a high income bracket for earning £80k a year is exactly the sort of entitled unaware dipshit that's permitted to vote that undermines the appeal of democracy, for me.  I'm not sure what the better system is, but surely there's got to be something better than letting that sort of numpty vote for the likes of Johnson, Gove or Rees-Mogg?

O.


https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14193

is revolting.
[/quote]
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Christine

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #251 on: November 27, 2019, 03:20:57 PM »
Hi Outrider, sorry I've not got time to split up your reply.

I thought he was reasonably well-prepared - the problem is that he tries to communicate nuance and complexity, and the modern media doesn't appear to have time for that.

Except they weren't doing that - very few people are getting the chance to vote directly for Corby, if they want Corby they're having to vote Labour, and Labour does currently have an issue with anti-Semitism. Sure it's being played up in the press, but it's there at some level, and Labour haven't managed to get a suitable handle on it.

I fear the country as a whole is shift to the right, at least in the short term - which at least in part I think is down to the New Labour abandonment of the mid-left in favour of a centrist position which shifted the balance point to the right and which we've not managed to reassert.

Where do you get the figure of 19% of the populace living in absolute poverty? Relative poverty, perhaps, although that's emblematic of the inequality in income distribution and wealth, but absolute poverty is a different measure, and unless they've massively changed the reference points they're using recently I'd be highly surprised to see it that high.

In recent times, with increases in the minimum wage and generally high employment, even relative poverty should be in decline, although both those figures and the concept of minimum wage need a serious review in light of the increased desire for companies to operate on a 'gig economy' model of not actually employing people.

All of which is not to disagree with your underlying point that the guy on Question Time (?) suggesting that he wasn't in a high income bracket for earning £80k a year is exactly the sort of entitled unaware dipshit that's permitted to vote that undermines the appeal of democracy, for me.  I'm not sure what the better system is, but surely there's got to be something better than letting that sort of numpty vote for the likes of Johnson, Gove or Rees-Mogg?

O.


https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14193

is revolting.


Corbyn should have had a strategy ready for the attacks that were bound to come his way.  He sounded like he was being bullied, which isn't a good look for a potential PM, I don't think.

Corbyn is being portrayed by unquestioning supporters of the state of Israel as a racist.  Have a look at Rachel Riley's Twitter account for example.  The BBC are effectively blaming Corbyn for every allegedly racist comment made by Labour supporters (or supposedly Labour supporters).  They don't apply the same standards to the right. 

The figure of 19% living in absolute poverty shocked me too, it's in the link I provided from the IFS, from a report on poverty by the Joseph Rowntree Trust.  I may have misunderstood, I'll check it out again when I have time and post to correct the figure if I have.

I don't know what would be better than democracy.  It generally seems to work OK in Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Norway though, so perhaps we just need a different type.


Roses

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #252 on: November 27, 2019, 03:35:21 PM »
Corbyn has dithered over making a proper apology for the anti-Semitic comments made by some members of his party, just as he has dithered about his attitude to Brexit.
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Christine

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #253 on: November 27, 2019, 03:36:19 PM »
Hello again Outrider, the absolute poverty details are on page 32 of the pdf linked from the IFS page.  I may still have misunderstood!

And it's the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, not Trust. 

Outrider

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #254 on: November 27, 2019, 03:36:33 PM »
Hi Outrider, sorry I've not got time to split up your reply.

Not a problem - this is a volunteer forum, it would be churlish to complain about anything freely given :)

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Corbyn should have had a strategy ready for the attacks that were bound to come his way.  He sounded like he was being bullied, which isn't a good look for a potential PM, I don't think.

He had his strategy - I don't think it's a winning one, but he is to at least some degree a man of principle and I don't think he's suddenly going to try and be the polished media star now.

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Corbyn is being portrayed by unquestioning supporters of the state of Israel as a racist.

Importantly, though, that's not what Andrew Neill was accusing him of there, and he was responding to that specific allegation - he needs to do something about the links being made between Labour and anti-Semitism, but he needs to be careful about how it's done.  If he pushes too hard he splits the party, if he doesn't push hard enough he risks deepening the attack.

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Have a look at Rachel Riley's Twitter account for example.

I generally avoid Twatter - if something's important enough to talk to the world about, chances are it's not simple enough to cover in 280 characters.

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The BBC are effectively blaming Corbyn for every allegedly racist comment made by Labour supporters (or supposedly Labour supporters).

No they aren't, they're raising other people's accusations against the party, and they're taking him to task as the leader of the party for the party's response to accusations, that's different.  I think he could be well served to invite in an independent investigatory figure - it would take the onus off him, relieve him of the accusation of not showing sufficient leadership and (which I think he genuinely wants) would get to the root of anything that's actually there.

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They don't apply the same standards to the right.

The BBC, in their role as the public broadcaster, are somewhat limited to the scope of what is the public discourse, and are therefore to an extent at the mercy of the same generally right-wing press as the rest of us.  I think they could be making more of the accusations of Islamophobia against the Tories, for instance, but it's simply not in the public consciousness in the same way, and if they're the only media outlet holding to that line they face the accusation of being partisan from a right-wing media and a Tory party that would love the opportunity to shut them down.

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The figure of 19% living in absolute poverty shocked me too, it's in the link I provided from the IFS, from a report on poverty by the Joseph Rowntree Trust.  I may have misunderstood, I'll check it out again when I have time and post to correct the figure if I have.

They're citing is as 'Absolute Poverty', but it's a calculation 'After Housing Costs' - so not a direct measurement of absolute poverty, although still an indicator of the state of the low- and unpaid in the country.  It's not something you could easily compare to another country's figures, however, which is how I'm used to seeing such measures.

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I don't know what would be better than democracy.  It generally seems to work OK in Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Norway though, so perhaps we just need a different type.

Perhaps we need a better 'demos'?  I don't think Mrs O. would go for the snow, however, and as a Health and Safety Professional I'm pretty much limited to places that apply UK regulations...

O.
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Outrider

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #255 on: November 27, 2019, 03:37:10 PM »
Corbyn has dithered over making a proper apology for the anti-Semitic comments made by some members of his party, just as he has dithered about his attitude to Brexit.

Why would he apologise for something someone else has allegedly done?

O.
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Roses

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #256 on: November 27, 2019, 04:00:20 PM »
Why would he apologise for something someone else has allegedly done?

O.

Because he is the leader of the Labour Party and responsible for what goes on in it. Boris should be apologising for racism in the Tory party.
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Christine

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #257 on: November 27, 2019, 04:02:41 PM »
Corbyn has dithered over making a proper apology for the anti-Semitic comments made by some members of his party, just as he has dithered about his attitude to Brexit.

Corbyn has said he's sorry at least 3 times for any hurt or distress caused to Jewish people by antisemitism from Labour members.  There doesn't actually appear to be any evidence of this alleged endemic and wide-spread racism in Labour.  Jeremy Corbyn is not responsible for what every single member of his party says or does.  People are entitled to criticise the actions of the state of Israel, or at least they ought to be.

I take it you don't like "dithering".   Personally, I like an attempt to give honest answers to questions and a recognition that not every idea that pops into a party leader's head should be adopted immediately as policy.  Corbyn has promised he will implement whatever the result of a second EU membership referendum tells him to, which I think is the only way out of this ridiculous and dangerous cul-de-sac the Tories have driven us into.

I'm hoping that we'll see a 1945 type of moment, when propaganda and lies failed to bamboozle the electorate into voting against their own interests.  But I'm not betting on it and I'm very worried about the future.


Aruntraveller

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #258 on: November 27, 2019, 04:08:01 PM »
Beat me to it Christine. Corbyn has apologised which is more than can be said for the lying liar over any of his descriptive analogies. By which I mean racist comments.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #259 on: November 27, 2019, 04:12:13 PM »
Apparently the Tory candidate in my constituency has been suspended for anti Muslim comments.

Christine

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #260 on: November 27, 2019, 04:15:01 PM »
Hi Outrider,

You make some very good points.  I'll have a think about whether I'm being unfair to the BBC.

One thing about the right-wing press setting the agenda (and getting promoted hourly on Today) - if the BBC employees were doing journalism, they could take the headlines and present some relevant facts about them.  They don't.  They just read them out, which some might interpret as endorsement.  Nick Robinson can communicate a lot with his tone of voice and the occasional avuncular chuckle.

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #261 on: November 27, 2019, 04:33:02 PM »
It appears that there is no confirmed date for an interview with Johnson by Andrew Neil, and that it may not happen. If it doesn't suggest they just put up this


https://youtu.be/ZAxA-9D4X3o
 

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #262 on: November 27, 2019, 04:39:41 PM »
Confirmation of the suspension of my Tory candidate. That's 2 down in Scotland so far. As I posted earlier link, there seem ti be lots this election in different parties being removed.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/election-2019-50577918?__twitter_impression=true

Anchorman

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #263 on: November 27, 2019, 04:49:43 PM »
Confirmation of the suspension of my Tory candidate. That's 2 down in Scotland so far. As I posted earlier link, there seem ti be lots this election in different parties being removed.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/election-2019-50577918?__twitter_impression=true
 



Pity it wasn't a Tory marginal seat.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #264 on: November 27, 2019, 05:11:16 PM »

jeremyp

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #265 on: November 27, 2019, 06:05:22 PM »
Arghh!

Conservative 45% (+8) Labour 27% (-) Lib Dem 16% (-1) Green 3% (-) Brexit Party 2% (-7) Kantar Nov 14-18 #ge2019

That 45% is basically everybody who wants Brexit, except for the 2% voting Brexit. It's hard to see the Tories not gaining a huge majority with figures like that
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Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #266 on: November 27, 2019, 08:08:35 PM »
Thought that was a good PPB for Labour

Outrider

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #267 on: November 27, 2019, 08:14:06 PM »
Hi Outrider,

You make some very good points.  I'll have a think about whether I'm being unfair to the BBC.

One thing about the right-wing press setting the agenda (and getting promoted hourly on Today) - if the BBC employees were doing journalism, they could take the headlines and present some relevant facts about them.  They don't.  They just read them out, which some might interpret as endorsement.  Nick Robinson can communicate a lot with his tone of voice and the occasional avuncular chuckle.

I agree.  You'd think with a 24 hour news channel they'd take the opportunity to actually set out a context, build the picture, but they appear to be beholden to the rapid flick, grabby headline and an unfulfilled promise that more detail will be on the website when it rarely is.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #268 on: November 28, 2019, 06:25:45 AM »
Ooft

@YouGov MRP projection published by @thetimes Con MAJORITY of 68 Con 359 (+42) Lab 211 (-51) LD 13 (+1) Brexit 0 (-) Green 1 (-) SNP 43 (+8) PC 4 (-) Other 1 (-)

Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #269 on: November 28, 2019, 07:20:25 AM »

SteveH

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #270 on: November 28, 2019, 08:16:16 AM »
That 45% is basically everybody who wants Brexit, except for the 2% voting Brexit. It's hard to see the Tories not gaining a huge majority with figures like that
There must be a fair number of leftish Brexiters who would never vote tory.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #271 on: November 28, 2019, 08:19:08 AM »
There must be a fair number of leftish Brexiters who would never vote tory.

Not sure of that. Brexit appears to override any other concerns currently. A deeply depressing thought as it is going to enable a government that does not have the best wishes of the public at heart. How people do not see this I cannot personally fathom.
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Roses

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #272 on: November 28, 2019, 08:32:09 AM »
There must be a fair number of leftish Brexiters who would never vote tory.

I think they would if it meant we left the EU as that is more important to them than which party is in power. :o
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Nearly Sane

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #273 on: November 28, 2019, 08:54:41 AM »
Confirmation of the suspension of my Tory candidate. That's 2 down in Scotland so far. As I posted earlier link, there seem ti be lots this election in different parties being removed.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/election-2019-50577918?__twitter_impression=true

Another day and another candidate suspended. Labour this time

https://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news/politics/labour-axe-falkirk-candidate-1-5053352/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Gordon

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Re: UK election 2019
« Reply #274 on: November 28, 2019, 09:32:48 AM »
Bearing in mind that a no-deal Brexit at the end of 2020 remains a risk despite assurances from high-profile Tories that 'Boris' can do a deal in that 'didn't he get rid of the backstop when they said he couldn't', while conveniently forgetting he did so by doing what his predecessor said no UK PM could ever do as regards NI: so I'm astonished that there are sufficient numbers of voters who are perverse enough to risk a Tory government.