UK election 2019

[Outrider]

I think we will live to regret leaving the EU.

But not for as long as we might have done, if the NHS sell-off goes smoothly...

O.

[ippy]

Except that the EU has conflicting interests - a good trade deal financially for the EU is also a good deal for the UK financially, but politically the EU could do with the UK not getting a good deal out of leaving to discourage others from leaving and jeapordising the EU project - in exactly the same way that the purely financial concerns didn't amount to much in the Brexit vote (or we would have remained), so they aren't the be all and end all of the European side, either.

As to whether the UK is clueless or not when it comes to negotiating international trade it's been an awfully long time since very many Brits did any of it...

Quite how leaving a privileged position in a trade block of the most affluent countries in the world in favour of trying to compete on the global free-for-all against the US and China for pieces of the pittance that comes out of Africa, South America and Asia is a good move escapes me, but it seems that's what we're committed to now.

I voted Remain because of how well we did at Crimea... oh, wait, no, that was ancient history, too...

O.

It wasn't my intention to lash out at remainers and the women down by the river bashing out their washing out on the rocks was just pre the 1975 EEC referendum time when I was over there and did actually see these things amongst others for myself.

As to whether you may or may not have not come to anything like a similar conclusion to me about the things I saw at that time, well that's up to you I wont be joining in as I indicated in my previous post.

Regards, ippy.

[Harrowby Hall]

It wasn't my intention to lash out at remainers and the women down by the river bashing out their washing out on the rocks was just pre the 1975 EEC referendum time when I was over there and did actually see these things amongst others for myself. 

So, you base your current opinions on behaviour you claim to have observed 45 years ago?

The past is a different country: they do things differently there.

[ippy]

So, you base your current opinions on behaviour you claim to have observed 45 years ago?

The past is a different country: they do things differently there.

Yes H H, 45 years ago when the referendum for entering the EEC was looming, I wasn't referring to the present day, I would have thought that was obvious.

ippy.

[Harrowby Hall]

There was no referendum for entering the Common Market. The fact that you think there was in an indication of the unreliability of your memories.

As for the recollection of women washing by streams, is your argument (!) that this must still be the case?

[ippy]

There was no referendum for entering the Common Market. The fact that you think there was in an indication of the unreliability of your memories.

As for the recollection of women washing by streams, is your argument (!) that this must still be the case?

The EEC, Harold Wilson's referendum or vote you chose the word you want to use!

Do you really think that I think women doing washing by the river was the only indicator of the state of health of economies at that time.

Is it really necessary to write a lengthy thesis that is also legally sound every time we pass on an observation that should be easily understood.

Alright we may not agree about the recent EU stuff?

ippy

[ProfessorDavey]

The EEC, Harold Wilson's referendum or vote you chose the word you want to use!

That wasn't a referendum to join the Common market/EEC/EU. We were already a member - the referendum was on whether we should remain a member or leave.

[Udayana]

That wasn't a referendum to join the Common market/EEC/EU. We were already a member - the referendum was on whether we should remain a member or leave.

IIRC:

We joined after a number of failed attempts - having lost the Empire and failing to build the Commonwealth as a cooperative trading block.

Even after joining the UK limped along as the "sick man of Europe" until, ironically, the benefits of EEC trade kicked in under the Thatcher government. 

The EEC was needed to rebuild industry in Western Europe after obliteration in WWII, and has grown in influence and power ever since, helping pull Southern and Eastern Europe out of poverty.

It has had it's faults and made errors along the way, but so do all cooperative endeavours.

[ippy]

That wasn't a referendum to join the Common market/EEC/EU. We were already a member - the referendum was on whether we should remain a member or leave.

Thank you Proff, hardly worth the trouble on such a minor point.

ippy

[ippy]

IIRC:

We joined after a number of failed attempts - having lost the Empire and failing to build the Commonwealth as a cooperative trading block.

Even after joining the UK limped along as the "sick man of Europe" until, ironically, the benefits of EEC trade kicked in under the Thatcher government. 

The EEC was needed to rebuild industry in Western Europe after obliteration in WWII, and has grown in influence and power ever since, helping pull Southern and Eastern Europe out of poverty.

It has had it's faults and made errors along the way, but so do all cooperative endeavours.

Always interesting to see another point of view.

Regards, ippy.

[Harrowby Hall]

Thank you Proff, hardly worth the trouble on such a minor point. 

It's the "minor points" which indicate whether or not you have any understanding of what you are writing about. We are still awaiting some evidence that you have any real command of this matter beyond Daily Mail headlines. The United Kingdom had entered the EEC following a Conservative election victory in which joining the EEC had been a manifesto commitment.

The referendum of 1975 was held for exactly the same reason as the more recent referendum. Cameron held the referendum in order to shut down Rees Mogg and the ERG. Wilson used his referendum to silence Tony Wedgwood Benn and his coterie of hangers on. The main difference between the two events is that whereas Wilson was competent Cameron was slipshod and complacent.

[Walter]

It's the "minor points" which indicate whether or not you have any understanding of what you are writing about. We are still awaiting some evidence that you have any real command of this matter beyond Daily Mail headlines. The United Kingdom had entered the EEC following a Conservative election victory in which joining the EEC had been a manifesto commitment.

The referendum of 1975 was held for exactly the same reason as the more recent referendum. Cameron held the referendum in order to shut down Rees Mogg and the ERG. Wilson used his referendum to silence Tony Wedgwood Benn and his coterie of hangers on. The main difference between the two events is that whereas Wilson was competent Cameron was slipshod and complacent.

HH
Thosee who can , do
Those who can't post messages on an obscure message board and feel pleased about themselves

[Harrowby Hall]

HH
Thosee who can , do
Those who can't post messages on an obscure message board and feel pleased about themselves

I think that you are very, very brave to admit to this - and on an obscure message board, too.

[jeremyp]

Just thought I'd add that I could have just about tolerated the original EEC arrangement although I did vote against that having toured across Europe several times I could see how poor they were over there at that time and I knew we would have to go down some way before the whole thing would be brought up to speck and only then hopefully our standards would start to better, so I thought, no thanks and voted accordingly.

I'm in Belgium right now. They're not poor.

In several areas the women were still down by the river banks banging out their washing, I'm not making that up, but that's not the only reason I'm a leaver, you're very welcome to your EU, just do me the favour of not taking me with you.
 

The thing is, we are in the EU. It's not us dragging you along. It's you dragging us along.

And down.

[ProfessorDavey]

... as for when we leave I think it's likely we'll be leaving on Jan 31-20 and of course there'll be endless ranging over the details ...

The question was about 'when the leave process will be completed' not when we nominally leave the EU. And as you infer, but don't seem prepared to be clear on, this will take years. Boris' 'get brexit done' slogan is a lie as voting tory won't get it done for years.

because true to form they wont be seeing it's in the EU's best interests to smooth the path for us, but there, the UK as a country isn't exactly known for being clueless when dealing with other trading groups.

There will be a negotiation between two parties (the UK and the EU) who will both, quite rightly, be looking to protect their interests. The problem for the UK is that it wont be a negotiation between equals as we need their trade far more than they need ours. So it is likely that the final negotiated deal will be closer to that which the EU wants than the UK government. In a way I'm comfortable about that if it means we remain much closer in alignment to the EU.

[ProfessorDavey]

Just thought I'd add that I could have just about tolerated the original EEC arrangement although I did vote against that having toured across Europe several times I could see how poor they were over there at that time and I knew we would have to go down some way before the whole thing would be brought up to speck and only then hopefully our standards would start to better, so I thought, no thanks and voted accordingly.

In several areas the women were still down by the river banks banging out their washing, I'm not making that up, but that's not the only reason I'm a leaver, you're very welcome to your EU, just do me the favour of not taking me with you.

When and where was that Ippy.

I've travelled extensively across the EU member states and simply don't recognise your observation.

Actually one of the great achievements of the EU has been its ability to massively improve the economic position of its member states. There are a fair number that at the time of joining were genuinely poor (in many cases due to totalitarian regimes) and, due to EU membership, have become stable democracies with economies comparable to other traditionally 'rich' EU member states.

[ippy]

It's the "minor points" which indicate whether or not you have any understanding of what you are writing about. We are still awaiting some evidence that you have any real command of this matter beyond Daily Mail headlines. The United Kingdom had entered the EEC following a Conservative election victory in which joining the EEC had been a manifesto commitment.

The referendum of 1975 was held for exactly the same reason as the more recent referendum. Cameron held the referendum in order to shut down Rees Mogg and the ERG. Wilson used his referendum to silence Tony Wedgwood Benn and his coterie of hangers on. The main difference between the two events is that whereas Wilson was competent Cameron was slipshod and complacent.

I have various reason for not wanting the now EU and the then EEC and I'm quite happy with my reasons for not wanting to be a part of the now EU.

Regards, ippy.

[ippy]

When and where was that Ippy.

I've travelled extensively across the EU member states and simply don't recognise your observation.

Actually one of the great achievements of the EU has been its ability to massively improve the economic position of its member states. There are a fair number that at the time of joining were genuinely poor (in many cases due to totalitarian regimes) and, due to EU membership, have become stable democracies with economies comparable to other traditionally 'rich' EU member states.

Read my posts Proff the information you want me to give you is there.

Regards, ippy.

[Aruntraveller]

So the madness and stupidity that is the BBC's political coverage continues.

In an interview with Tory MP Andrew Bowie about the SNP's ambitions for another Indy ref, the following question was put by Huw Edwards:

Given that the SNP achieved 48 seats don't you consider that a strong mandate for a referendum?

Bowie's reply was that the SNP only got 45% of the vote and he didn't consider that a mandate for anything.

Surely an open goal for Edwards to score in. No.

Did he say the UK government hasn't by your logic got a mandate either as you also got 45%?

No. Not a bit of it, just rambled on and said thank you very much to the MP.

I despair.

[Anchorman]

So the madness and stupidity that is the BBC's political coverage continues.

In an interview with Tory MP Andrew Bowie about the SNP's ambitions for another Indy ref, the following question was put by Huw Edwards:

Given that the SNP achieved 48 seats don't you consider that a strong mandate for a referendum?

Bowie's reply was that the SNP only got 45% of the vote and he didn't consider that a mandate for anything.

Surely an open goal for Edwards to score in. No.

Did he say the UK government hasn't by your logic got a mandate either as you also got 45%?

No. Not a bit of it, just rambled on and said thank you very much to the MP.

I despair.

     



I'd like to say I'm surprised - but I don't like lying.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I think that you are very, very brave to admit to this - and on an obscure message board, too.

Walter's 2 brain cells can post a couple of lines on an obscure message board. Expecting him to actually think through what he is posting might be asking too much of him.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I have various reason for not wanting the now EU and the then EEC and I'm quite happy with my reasons for not wanting to be a part of the now EU.

Regards, ippy.

This posts reminds me of AB's reasons for his version of free will. No evidence or logic needed so long as your happy with your reasons Ippy.   

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Given the rise of social media in informing people's opinions I am not surprised by the election result.

"Nearly 90% of Facebook ads paid for by the Conservative Party in the first few days of December contained misleading claims, an investigation has found. First Draft – a non-profit organisation which works on debunking fake news – analysed every ad promoted by the UK’s three main political parties on the social media giant in the first four days of December.


Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/?ito=cbshare

Noam Chomsky had an interesting line on "manufactured consent" by the media. The media tell the public what their corporate backers want them to hear in order to meet the needs of businesses.

Media costs a lot more than the public are willing to pay so corporate advertisers plug the funding gap in return for corporate access to the public, not just to sell them whatever increases corporate profit, but also to create myths around a manufactured bogeyman to discredit any criticism of the media-owners and corporations that might upset the status quo for the wealthy media bosses and business-owners. In this case, the bogeyman could be the EU.

It seems if you get 45% of the public to buy into the bogeyman myth you end up with the public voting against their own economic self-interest for something that is in the economic best interests of the wealthy 1%. Genius.

[Roses]

Some people can be extremely gullible, imo.

[Udayana]

Given the rise of social media in informing people's opinions I am not surprised by the election result.
...

It would be good to actually get a handle on how social media affected voting in the elections - as opposed to msm. It must be confounded by the way that social media channels become echo chambers.

 
It seems if you get 45% of the public to buy into the bogeyman myth you end up with the public voting against their own economic self-interest for something that is in the economic best interests of the wealthy 1%. Genius.

Funny how those with the most money are good at getting the populace to vote to give them yet more.