Author Topic: Tree in a forest  (Read 8193 times)

Udayana

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #100 on: November 13, 2019, 09:55:40 AM »

You are still not in the same wavelength. 

I am not talking about differences in the working of our senses or differences in brain chemistry.  I am talking about interacting with the world.  Let me see if I can explain...
...

Not unreasonable. In fact that is what most posters here have been positing...  ?
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Enki

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #101 on: November 13, 2019, 10:49:56 AM »
As Udayana says, this is what other posters have been basically saying. In the case of the tree, we simply give it that name, because our brains recognise the same thing in the same way. No one has suggested, as far as I can see, that it can't be interpreted in different ways(e.g. your possible string level, particle level or molecular level). What's the problem?
How we interpret something does not mean that the 'something' doesn't exist in its own right, whether we are there to interpret it or not.
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Outrider

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #102 on: November 14, 2019, 09:54:36 AM »
You are still not in the same wavelength. 

I am not talking about differences in the working of our senses or differences in brain chemistry.  I am talking about interacting with the world.  Let me see if I can explain...

What is the world essentially...?  No one knows.

No-one has absolute knowledge, but we have a range of increasingly and decreasingly confident understandings at various scales and of various phenomena - it's not absolute ignorance any more than it's absolute knowledge

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People however think that at the smallest level (that we can think of currently) the world is Strings.   Some tiny bit of energy vibrating in 11 dimensions and transforming itself into the world. That is the most basic picture of 'reality' that we have currently (I think).

That's one theory - it's one in the less well validated end of our pool of knowledge, as I understand things.

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After this, there are different levels of reality...at the elementary particle level, atomic level, molecular level and so on. If we could perceive at each of these levels, reality will appear different....

Those aren't different levels of reality, those are just reality - they are different levels of our understanding, they are scales at which we can observe distinct ways of defining phenomena, but they are all simultaneous and equally valid.  The scaling and the levels are facets of our limitations of understanding, not differences in reality itself.

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Alright...then why are we not seeing all these realities but only seeing a tree? This is because at our scale, our senses and brain show us that 'reality'.....that is why.

It is the level at which our sensory apparatus has evolved because it's the level at which those developments increased breeding success in our ancestors.

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Not that the tree is actually real....but that our interface with the world works like that and shows us molecules arranged in that form.

Of course the tree is real - and whilst we directly perceive the solidity of the bark, it is at exactly the same time essentially empty space with interacting quanta floating in it, and a collection of plant cells interacting with each other and the environment, and a four-dimensional block-time object.  That reality is there, our perception of it is divided.

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If we had a different type of interface, reality would appear different.....such as being able to see and feel Dark Matter, for example. Or being able to see molecules  or atoms or electrons moving about....whatever.

Importantly, though, reality would not BE different - it's our perception that alters, not reality.  And, as we learn more about the facets of reality that we can't directly perceive, so our understanding and perception slowly approaches a more complete one.

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So, my point is that the tree is not 'real' in an absolute sense. It is real only as far as our interface is concerned.

No, the tree is real, our perception is limited (but, arguably, improving). If we perceived at the atomic scale the tree would still be a tree, we'd just be looking at a different level.  Examining plant cells under a microscope doesn't stop a flower being real.

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Dogs and other creatures share the same interface. Instruments and cameras are also made in line with our interface (senses). So obviously, they all show the same 'reality'.

No, some cameras see wavelengths that we can't, other animals detect phenomena that we either don't or aren't consciously aware of (Earth's magnetic field, for instance), some equipment detects entire phenomena of which we are directly unaware (neutrino emissions, for instance).

O.
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Sriram

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #103 on: November 16, 2019, 05:44:18 AM »


https://www.sciencealert.com/new-quantum-physics-experiment-questions-the-existence-of-objective-reality

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This may seem counter intuitive. The scientific method is after all founded on the reliable notions of observation, measurement and repeatability. A fact, as established by a measurement, should be objective, such that all observers can agree with it.

But in a paper recently published in Science Advances, we show that, in the micro-world of atoms and particles that is governed by the strange rules of quantum mechanics, two different observers are entitled to their own facts.

In other words, according to our best theory of the building blocks of nature itself, facts can actually be subjective.

We have now for the first time performed this test experimentally at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh on a small-scale quantum computer made up of three pairs of entangled photons.

....we succeeded in showing that quantum mechanics might indeed be incompatible with the assumption of objective facts – we violated the inequality.

Clearly these are all deeply philosophical questions about the fundamental nature of reality.

**********

Stranger

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #104 on: November 16, 2019, 08:55:32 AM »
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-quantum-physics-experiment-questions-the-existence-of-objective-reality

This is the same paper as you used in More than one reality exists - see my comments in reply #4.

In particular it isn't compatible with the idea that an observation has anything to do with consciousness - the "observers", in this experiment, are just quantum scale particle states.
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Sriram

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #105 on: November 16, 2019, 09:30:12 AM »


It is not the same paper.......

Stranger

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #106 on: November 16, 2019, 09:52:18 AM »
It is not the same paper.......

In the previous thread you linked to this article: More Than One Reality Exists (in Quantum Physics)

That article linked to this paper (pdf): Experimental test of local observer-independence

Above, you linked to this article: New Quantum Physics Experiment Suggests Objective Reality Doesn't Exist

That article linked to this: Experimental test of local observer independence

Which, minor rewording aside, appears to be the same paper.
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Juan Toomany

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #107 on: February 16, 2020, 04:50:52 PM »
If Sriram is alone in a forest and attempts an argument, is it still logically false?

Also, If a man in a forest makes a decision and there isn't a woman there to hear him is he still wrong.

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Juan Toomany

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #108 on: February 16, 2020, 04:56:34 PM »
No, sound is the variation in the air pressure - I have a machine, without a brain, that measures sound so that I can check people aren't being exposed to hazardous levels of it.

We have an experience of sound, but the sound exists without us.  We know this, because; the sound travels the distance between the tree and the ear, it doesn't just magically appear in the brain; the sound causes a physical response in the ear-drum and ear-canal before we sense and interpret it.

Sound exists, sound transmits energy to objects; some of those objects (i.e. ears) are linked to brains which can then sense the nerve signals generated in response to the sound, but the sound has to come first.

O.

But you can measure the variation in air pressure at frequencies we can't hear would you still call it 'sound'.
"I think the surest sign that there is intelligent life out there in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." Calvin and Hobbes/Bill Waterson.

Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Outrider

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #109 on: February 17, 2020, 10:20:03 AM »
Also, If a man in a forest makes a decision and there isn't a woman there to hear him is he still wrong.

I think, if my matrimonial training has held true, that he's only wrong if she didn't tell him the right decision beforehand, or sometimes if she did but it was a while ago and 'things have changed'...

O.
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Juan Toomany

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #110 on: February 17, 2020, 12:53:39 PM »
I think, if my matrimonial training has held true, that he's only wrong if she didn't tell him the right decision beforehand, or sometimes if she did but it was a while ago and 'things have changed'...

O.
Can't argue with that. But it is good to know that some things old true.
"I think the surest sign that there is intelligent life out there in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." Calvin and Hobbes/Bill Waterson.

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Outrider

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #111 on: February 17, 2020, 01:45:55 PM »
But you can measure the variation in air pressure at frequencies we can't hear would you still call it 'sound'.

Depends on the context - if you were talking frequencies other animals could hear, the perhaps, but probably not.  At that stage it's just measurements of variation in air pressure.  But, of course, in that situation it wouldn't matter if anyone was there or not, it still wouldn't be heard...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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Juan Toomany

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Re: Tree in a forest
« Reply #112 on: February 18, 2020, 03:04:10 PM »
Depends on the context - if you were talking frequencies other animals could hear, the perhaps, but probably not.  At that stage it's just measurements of variation in air pressure.  But, of course, in that situation it wouldn't matter if anyone was there or not, it still wouldn't be heard...

O.

Hi,

Perhaps we also use the word sound, meaning air pressure waves, to differentiate from electromagnetic waves.
Also, when sound is out of the human range we often add the pre fixes sub (sub sonic) and ultra (ultra sonic or ultra sound) to indicate that it is not in the audible range. We also do this with light by using ultra and infra.

There must have been a time in the past when the word sound or its origin only meant what you could hear.
"I think the surest sign that there is intelligent life out there in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." Calvin and Hobbes/Bill Waterson.

Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.