Author Topic: Smart Motorways  (Read 2497 times)

ad_orientem

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Re: Smart Motorways
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2020, 09:03:47 PM »
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/safety-on-smart-motorways

The government claims that smart motorways are safer but they are still lethally dangerous if you breakdown in a live lane with no hard shoulder;  they are using statistics to lie to us.

What would you do if you had a puncture or broke down in one? Yesterday a friend broke down on the M27 - still being converted. He manged to get to the LHS - got out and had to scramble up a bank to get a reasonable distance from the crash barrier.

As the roadworks were still ongoing with free towing, a truck turned up within minutes and towed the car away.

However they left friend abandoned in a field, miles from an actual road or village, despite seeing that he was trying to get back down!


So what if you break down in a place where there's no hard shoulder or junction?
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jeremyp

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Re: Smart Motorways
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2020, 08:10:26 PM »
Indeed. In fact one of the cases discussed concerned a granddad and child trapped in a live lane on a bridge with nothing except a metal wall on the left - no where to go even if they managed to get out of the car. IIRC they were hit 45 seconds after coming to a halt.

That sounds like a general issue on bridges. If there had been a hard shoulder, they still would have had nowhere to go.

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The transport minister (Shapps) , AA and Police on the programme confirmed that there were many cases where the only advice could be was to stay in the car, call 999 and wait until rescued. 
How many is "many"? Ten? A hundred? Ten thousand?
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This on motorways where the radar systems, that smart motorways were designed to have, have not been implemented - most smart motorways, ie. everywhere apart from the M25.
 
If there are such features, then there is no reason why they can't be implemented on motorways that do have hard shoulders or adequate refuge areas. As far as the statistics go, we must remember that in general overall fatal and serious injuries on motorways have been coming down for some years due to more speed cameras and better safety features in vehicles.
As a rule, there are no speed cameras on motorways, except smart motorways. They do have them on one non smart section of the M4 near Swindon, I believe, but nowhere else as far as I know.

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- Accessible refuge areas
- Radar detection of stopped vehicles
- Elimination of temporary hard shoulder use
If you do point 3, you don't need to do point 1.

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They need to do something about driver education also though. I can't see them throwing away anything good - such as the speed or monitoring cameras and variable speed limits.

Here is my problem. Some assertions have been made about the dangers of smart motorways some anecdotes have been cit4ed for their inherent danger. But nobody has done any serious research to find out if smart motorways are any more dangerous than the non smart motorways they replace. Even measures that may seem obvious ain't necessarily so. For example, reinstating hard shoulders seems like a good thing, but it is possible that the ability to use the hard shoulder as a lane reduces congestion which brings a whole slew of benefits e.g. reduced pollution, reduced stress of drivers and so on and these benefits may offset the extra deaths on the hard shoulder.

The above is all speculation but it does demonstrate that we should not be making decisions without adequate evidence. Your anecdotes are not adequate evidence.
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Udayana

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Re: Smart Motorways
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2020, 12:18:21 PM »
That sounds like a general issue on bridges. If there had been a hard shoulder, they still would have had nowhere to go.

That was a location where the hard shoulder was being used as a live lane - you are comparing getting out and waiting outside of the car on a hard shoulder with getting out and waiting in a live lane?

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How many is "many"? Ten? A hundred? Ten thousand?As a rule, there are no speed cameras on motorways, except smart motorways. They do have them on one non smart section of the M4 near Swindon, I believe, but nowhere else as far as I know.
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If you do point 3, you don't need to do point 1.

The system is not homogeneous. Some places have temporary hard shoulders, some don't have hard shoulders at all - the former won't need refuge areas if returned to permanent hard shoulders.

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Here is my problem. Some assertions have been made about the dangers of smart motorways some anecdotes have been cit4ed for their inherent danger. But nobody has done any serious research to find out if smart motorways are any more dangerous than the non smart motorways they replace. Even measures that may seem obvious ain't necessarily so. For example, reinstating hard shoulders seems like a good thing, but it is possible that the ability to use the hard shoulder as a lane reduces congestion which brings a whole slew of benefits e.g. reduced pollution, reduced stress of drivers and so on and these benefits may offset the extra deaths on the hard shoulder.

The above is all speculation but it does demonstrate that we should not be making decisions without adequate evidence. Your anecdotes are not adequate evidence.

Nobody has done any serious research before launching a multi-billion pound series of construction projects? And then implemented a system which did not even meet the approved specifications? Ignored reports raising concerns with live lane running? This is much worse than I had assumed.

As you say this is all speculation but:

 a) we are not making any decisions here

 b) it would be great if Highways England would make the base data available so their decisions could be properly scrutinized

The "anecdotes" are not provided as evidence but as failed use cases for a system where apparently "one death is too many".
 
Next:  Grenfell cladding selection due to lack of statistics but at least all Kensington and Chelsea council tax payers benefited from a tax rebate?
 
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: Smart Motorways
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2021, 04:46:36 PM »
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Smart Motorways
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2021, 05:25:48 PM »
It has taken a long time ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56815522
During all lane running Smart motorways effectively become A roads.
I wonder why all this smart designation bollocks wasn't challenged under various road traffic acts.

If you wanted to avoid the charge of actually reducing the number of motorways why were they not designated as S Roads.

ad_orientem

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Re: Smart Motorways
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2021, 07:04:35 PM »
Whoever thought it was a good idea was a div.
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Udayana

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Re: Smart Motorways
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2021, 02:47:15 PM »
It has taken a long time ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56815522

Indeed, though good to see some improvements being made. What I want to understand is how they were put in place without specified and promised safety features tested and in place.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now