Corbyn accused of anti-semitism for pronouncing a Jewish name correctly.

[SteveH]

This is getting bloody ridiculous. The right are getting desperate.

[Robbie]

It certainly is ridiculous, did you read the comments below from David Baddiel and Gerald Ratner? I saw the debate and didn't notice how he said the name.

[Walter]

David Baddiel will say and do anything to keep himself in the public eye .
He is a self serving has been who can't bear to think he's all washed up
Pathetic .

[Nearly Sane]

David Baddiel will say and do anything to keep himself in the public eye .
He is a self serving has been who can't bear to think he's all washed up
Pathetic .

Let's just dismiss Jewish people's view because they are 'self serving'

[SteveH]

Let's just dismiss Jewish people's view because they are 'self serving'

Walter said Baddiel was self-serving, not that all Jewish people were. Jews are as capable as anyone else of being over-sensitive, and pretending to be offended, both of which are excessively common in these snowflakey days.

[ProfessorDavey]

It certainly is ridiculous, did you read the comments below from David Baddiel and Gerald Ratner? I saw the debate and didn't notice how he said the name.

I did notice the difference in pronunciation - but thought nothing of it, any more than when watching a programme where one commentator kept referring to Ther-ay-sa May rather than The-ee-sa May.

[Aruntraveller]

I read about this yesterday. Apparently there are at least 4 ways of pronouncing Epstein, all of which are equally acceptable. The common ones are these (From memory) Epsteen, Epstine, Ephstine, Ephsteen. The last 2 are arguably more correct as they recognise the German pronunciation of what was originally a German town.

A fuss over nothing.

[ProfessorDavey]

I read about this yesterday. Apparently there are at least 4 ways of pronouncing Epstein, all of which are equally acceptable. The common ones are these (From memory) Epsteen, Epstine, Ephstine, Ephsteen. The last 2 are arguably more correct as they recognise the German pronunciation of what was originally a German town.

A fuss over nothing.

I think the correct pronunciation is the one he and his family use themselves. No idea what that is, but the media have tended to use Epsteen universally in the UK. Whether that is how his family pronounce their name I have no idea.

[Nearly Sane]

Walter said Baddiel was self-serving, not that all Jewish people were. Jews are as capable as anyone else of being over-sensitive, and pretending to be offended, both of which are excessively common in these snowflakey days.

And Baddiel was not the only Jewish person to raise it - I'm loathe to dismiss the views of Jewish people on what they think is anti Semitism. Nor am I willing to assign motivations on the basis of a lazy generalisation

[Walter]

Let's just dismiss Jewish people's view because they are 'self serving'

my post still stands no matter what spin YOU want to put on it .

[jeremyp]

So what is this about? Corbyn pronounces Epstein's name wrongly allegedly in order to make him sound more Jewish?

Is it anti-semitic of me to point out that Epstein was Jewish (at least according to Wikipedia)?

[jeremyp]

And Baddiel was not the only Jewish person to raise it - I'm loathe to dismiss the views of Jewish people on what they think is anti Semitism.

I'd prefer to to judge a view based on its merits, not the general class of who said it.

Anyway, Walter made a comment about a specific person, not Jews. He may be right or he may be wrong but even if David Baddiel is washed up and will say anything, it doesn't mean he (Baddiel) is wrong in this particular case (or right).

Nor am I willing to assign motivations on the basis of a lazy generalisation

I like the irony.

[Nearly Sane]

I'd prefer to to judge a view based on its merits, not the general class of who said it.

Anyway, Walter made a comment about a specific person, not Jews. He may be right or he may be wrong but even if David Baddiel is washed up and will say anything, it doesn't mean he (Baddiel) is wrong in this particular case (or right).

I like the irony.

I'm not judging the merits of it but I'm aware that people who are Jewish might well be more attuned to what is anti semitic than I am. I agree that Walter's ad hominem is incorrect. Where is the irony?

[Nearly Sane]

my post still stands no matter what spin YOU want to put on it .

All posts that are on the board 'still stand'. It's not exactly a significant claim.

[jeremyp]

I'm not judging the merits of it but I'm aware that people who are Jewish might well be more attuned to what is anti semitic than I am. I agree that Walter's ad hominem is incorrect.

I think it's a classic ad hom.

 

Where is the irony?

In the previous sentence you made a lazy generalisation about the views of Jewish people.

To address this particular point in a more serious manner, it is problematic to give a particular class of people carte blanche in deciding what constitutes persecution of that class. For example, a Christian tells me that the shops being open on Sundays is persecution of Christians. Well, they would know, they're Christians, we'd better shut the shops. Another example: some Jewish people claim that criticism of Israel's policies towards Palestine is antisemitic. They're Jewish, they're more attuned to antisemitism, so we'd better stop criticising Israel.

David Baddiel thinks it is potentially antisemitic to pronounce Jeffrey Epstein's name in a more Jewish way. I assume that David Baddiel's reasoning is that the subtext is "Epstein the paedophile sex trafficker is Jewish. What do you expect from Jews?" Is it rational that Jeremy Corbyn would want to deliberately convey that message in the middle of an election campaign when he's already under scrutiny for antisemitism? I don't think so.

[Gordon]

Given the antisemitic issues in the Labour party, and the increased scrutiny on what precisely politicians say, or have said, and that this involves the leader of the Labour party, I can see that Jewish people might justifiably be sensitive to what, for most of us, would be an unusual pronunciation of Epstein (thinking of say, Brian Epstein).

Unless he explains himself, and it would be good to know if he had pronounced the name differently before, my guess is that he was probably trying to show that he was aware of how Jewish people might pronounce this name but was unaware that by doing so he could be seen as either being patronising or was highlighting the Jewishness of Epstein.

 

[SteveH]

There are no antisemitic "issues" in the Labour party. It's all a fabrication by Zionists and the Tory party. Supporting the Palestinians and criticising Israel is not antisemitic.

[Nearly Sane]

I think it's a classic ad hom.

 In the previous sentence you made a lazy generalisation about the views of Jewish people.

To address this particular point in a more serious manner, it is problematic to give a particular class of people carte blanche in deciding what constitutes persecution of that class. For example, a Christian tells me that the shops being open on Sundays is persecution of Christians. Well, they would know, they're Christians, we'd better shut the shops. Another example: some Jewish people claim that criticism of Israel's policies towards Palestine is antisemitic. They're Jewish, they're more attuned to antisemitism, so we'd better stop criticising Israel.

David Baddiel thinks it is potentially antisemitic to pronounce Jeffrey Epstein's name in a more Jewish way. I assume that David Baddiel's reasoning is that the subtext is "Epstein the paedophile sex trafficker is Jewish. What do you expect from Jews?" Is it rational that Jeremy Corbyn would want to deliberately convey that message in the middle of an election campaign when he's already under scrutiny for antisemitism? I don't think so.

I'm not giving anyone carte blanche to decide what is persecution but I'm allowing that they will be better placed that people not belonging to that group to notice persecution. I agree with you in this case I don't think he was but not all anti Semitism is a rational choice. We all have unconscious biases. Again I don't think this is an example but I'm honestly not close enough to it to make much of a judgement.


Oh and I think we are violently agreeing about the ad hom.

[Nearly Sane]

There are no antisemitic "issues" in the Labour party. It's all a fabrication by Zionists and the Tory party. Supporting the Palestinians and criticising Israel is not antisemitic.

So Chris Williamson was suspended erroneously?

[wigginhall]

It's also standard German pronunciation.   Thus the word "Stein" is pronounced "shtein".   What a fuss over nothing.

[jeremyp]

It's also standard German pronunciation.   Thus the word "Stein" is pronounced "shtein".   What a fuss over nothing.

It's not nothing anymore, it's something. And the reason it is something rather than nothing is because certain people have put it into our heads.

[Christine]

I'm not judging the merits of it but I'm aware that people who are Jewish might well be more attuned to what is anti semitic than I am. I agree that Walter's ad hominem is incorrect. Where is the irony?

There are some Jewish people who don’t agree that Jeremy Corbyn is racist and Labour is a racist institution.  Michael Rosen, Noam Chomsky, Alexei Sayle and Miriam Margoyles to name a few. 

So Chris Williamson was suspended erroneously?

Chris Williamson said Labour had been too apologetic in its response to the evidentially-challenged accusations of racism.  He said Labour was being demonised as a racist party as a result.  How is that anti-Semitic?  It's the only evidence I've seen presented that he's a racist - if you know of something else he said that actually shows him being racist, I'd be interested to see it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Israeli_government#Critics_of_Israel_who_have_been_accused_of_antisemitism

Noam Chomsky argues that Israel's foreign minister Abba Eban equated anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism in an effort to "exploit anti-racist sentiment for political ends", citing statement Eban made in 1973: "One of the chief tasks of any dialogue with the Gentile world is to prove that the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not a distinction at all." Commenting on Eban's statement, Chomsky replied: "That is a convenient stand. It cuts off a mere 100 percent of critical comment!"

I read Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem a while ago.  She was accused of anti-Semitism too, because she criticised the actions of some Jewish people during the war and Israel's conduct of Eichmann's prosecution.

[Aruntraveller]

Well it's all very strange. Brian Epstein, the very late Beatles manager, was always referred to as Epstine unless my memory has got that wrong.

Still I always had my suspicions about that Mary Shelley woman.

[Christine]

Well it's all very strange. Brian Epstein, the very late Beatles manager, was always referred to as Epstine unless my memory has got that wrong.

Still I always had my suspicions about that Mary Shelley woman.

You reminded me of Gene Wilder stabbing himself in the thigh.  Fronkenshteen!!! 

Thanks 

[Roses]

This is getting bloody ridiculous. The right are getting desperate.

I agree.