Independent Scotland...??

[Sriram]

Hi everyone,

Its surprising that a small country like the UK has so many internal differences.

https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2019/12/world/uk-election-scottish-independence/

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For Scottish voters, a key issue in the December 12 general election will be whether, in the long term, they want to remain part of the UK or to break away and become an independent country.

“Independence is not about ‘oh we hate the English,’” says 22-year-old Scot and pro-independence campaigner Iona Fraser-Collins. “It’s about us wanting to be in charge of our own laws, and England being in charge of its own laws.”

Scotland rejected independence at a 2014 referendum, 55% to 45%. But circumstances have changed dramatically since then, according to the Scottish National Party (SNP) -- the third-largest party in the UK Parliament.

In 2016 Scotsvoted overwhelmingly to remain in the European Union. Instead, they got Brexit – setting the country on a path it hadn’t agreed to and re-energizing the fight for independence.

The students say Scotland feels like a “second-class country” where Westminster overlords dictate everything from their finance to defense policies. “We want to sit next to England at the table,” says Stage, “rather than in the back taking the scraps they can throw.”

They point to the UK’s Trident nuclear weapons, carried by submarines based on Scotland’s west coast, as an example of the “double standards” and “condescending nature” of Westminster lawmakers towards their country.

“You couldn’t do it in the Thames (in London) because it’s too much of a threat to human life,” says Stage. “But what’s a trident bomb going to do amongst lochs and glens and Glasgow.”

She believes the same argument for staying in the EU, applies to staying in the UK. “We are better off in the UK with the relationships we have across these islands, as well as remaining in the EU and maintaining those relationships we have across the continent,” Chamberlain says, the sea breeze ruffling her long curly hair.

Scotland isn’t traditional territory for the Conservatives. But in the last few years the party has made significant gains while Labour, which had triumphed here since the 1960s, lost huge swaths of voters to a reinvigorated SNP.

Even the North East Fife’s Conservative candidate, Tony Miklinski, admits that “Boris does alienate some Scottish voters.”

The Prime Minister is “easily portrayed as the cartoon character, Eton-educated toff who’s out of touch with the working class, and with the people of Scotland.”

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I don't know much about UK politics but I thought it would at least want to  stay one country....

Cheers.

Sriram

[Nearly Sane]

Here is one prepared earlier


http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=13551.0

[Robbie]

It isn't one country though sririam, Scotland, England and Wales are different countries with distinct cultures even if under the umbrella of the UK government.

My feeling is if the majority of Scots want independence from Westminster they should have it but so far there hasn't been such a majority; there may be in near future because of Brexit, the majority of Scots voted to remain.

I don't know about Wales, we have someone on here living Wales who would know better than me how the Welshfeel. I remember when I was yuong hearing a lot of talk about Plaid Cymru, nationalism etc. but not heard much of that recently.

Thanks for link NS.

[Sriram]

It isn't one country though sririam, Scotland, England and Wales are different countries with distinct cultures even if under the umbrella of the UK government.

My feeling is if the majority of Scots want independence from Westminster they should have it but so far there hasn't been such a majority; there may be in near future because of Brexit, the majority of Scots voted to remain.

I don't know about Wales, we have someone on here living Wales who would know better than me how the Welshfeel. I remember when I was yuong hearing a lot of talk about Plaid Cymru, nationalism etc. but not heard much of that recently.

Thanks for link NS.

And that is what I find very odd.  Even in a big country like India with multiple languages, religions and major cultural differences, we find it unimaginable that anyone would want independence.  Even large countries like the US or China would discourage any idea of independence by any region. 

Why in a tiny island like the UK?!

[Nearly Sane]

And that is what I find very odd.  Even in a big country like India with multiple languages, religions and major cultural differences, we find it unimaginable that anyone would want independence.  Even large countries like the US or China would discourage any idea of independence by any region. 

Why in a tiny island like the UK?!

?
https://www.dw.com/en/kashmir-independence-activists-draw-inspiration-from-german-reunification/a-51091943

[SteveH]

And that is what I find very odd.  Even in a big country like India with multiple languages, religions and major cultural differences, we find it unimaginable that anyone would want independence.  Even large countries like the US or China would discourage any idea of independence by any region. 

Why in a tiny island like the UK?!

The UK is a group of islands, and part of one. It is by no means tiny: we are one of the larger countries in Europe. and Great Britain is the eighth largrst island in the world. The UK is 21st-largest country in the world by population.

[Sriram]

NS,

Kashmir was an independent kingdom till 1947. They chose to be with India after the partition with Pakistan.

But a special status was given (perhaps wrongly) to Kashmir under the Indian constitution. 

India has now chosen to revoke the special status and make Kashmir an integral part of the country like the other states, because of the terrorist activity that Pakistan is creating there. 

Not quite the same situation to what we are discussing here...

 

[Nearly Sane]

NS,

Kashmir was an independent kingdom till 1947. They chose to be with India after the partition of Pakistan.

But a special status was given (perhaps wrongly) to Kashmir under the Indian constitution. 

India has now chosen to revoke the special status and make Kashmir an integral part of the country like the other states, because of the terrorist activity that Pakistan is creating there. 

Not quite the same situation to what we are discussing here...

Didn't say it was the same. But you stated 'we find it unimaginable that anyone would want independence' - given those looking for Kashmir independence that is incorrect.

[Sriram]

Didn't say it was the same. But you stated 'we find it unimaginable that anyone would want independence' - given those looking for Kashmir independence that is incorrect.

Kashmir has now become integrated more than ever before. This was democratically done with MP's from Kashmir being present in Parliament. 

Fringe groups are not an issue. There are Pak and terrorist links to these group.....and hence much more complex. 

[Nearly Sane]

Kashmir has now become integrated more than ever before. This was democratically done with MP's from Kashmir being present in Parliament. 

Fringe groups are not an issue. There are Pak and terrorist links to these group.....and hence much more complex.

And yet even if you dismiss them as fringe groups they still exist.

[Sriram]

If you are trying to justify Scottish independence because some fringe Pakistan linked groups in Kashmir want independence,....that is fine. 

[Nearly Sane]

If you are trying to justify Scottish independence because some fringe Pakistan linked groups in Kashmir want independence,....that is fine. 

No, I'm doing nothing of the sort. I was just pointing out that one of your statements was wrong.

[Robbie]

Nobody is trying to justify on those grounds sririam. Scotland is a different country to England and many Scots believe they can govern themselves. It's very different to down here, (Scotland) is cosmopolitan and egalitarian; some English move to live there and others would like to. Scotland used not to be part of the UK, it was a completely separate country at one time. My view is that Scotland should be independent of us if that is what most of the Scots want. It wouldn't happen overnight nor would it mean border checks but it could work.

[Sriram]

Its been one country for more than 300 years...!! Still not integrated culturally? And its not really a huge country...! 

[Roses]

Its been one country for more than 300 years...!! Still not integrated culturally? And its not really a huge country...!

I agree, it would be even smaller if  Scotland gains its independence.

[wigginhall]

There is an analogy with Ireland.   As the joke goes, the first 70 years of independence are the worst!   Of course there are big differences also, the armed struggle in Ireland is very old.   I expect independent Scotland would be successful, why not?

[wigginhall]

I noticed in the old thread the play on "take back control", but not for Scotland.

[Gordon]

I'd have thought that Brexit, which is primarily an English disease, demonstrated clearly that the UK is no longer 'united'.

Some us Scots, though not all, feel no great allegiance to the UK, and especially so since it seems that our immediate political future depends on the extent to which ex-Labour voters in certain parts of England are stupid enough to vote Tory: after all, a 'no deal' situation in 12 months time is what they would be risking by doing so, and to me it seems perverse to countenance Johnson staying as PM and the likes of fuckers like Raab and Patel in high political office.   

[Sriram]

And that is what surprises me. Being one country for 300 years and being an island nation, how could people in Scotland not feel allegiance to the UK? 

Specific issues of political parties, Brexit etc. are a different matter.  These are matters of individual preference and have nothing to do with wanting independence.

In a democratic set up one has to go with the majority view...

[SteveH]

I agree, it would be even smaller if  Scotland gains its independence.

See my earlier post. The UK is quite large, bith in area and in population.

[Gordon]

And that is what surprises me. Being one country for 300 years and being an island nation, how could people in Scotland not feel allegiance to the UK? 

There are important differences, Sriram: for example, the legal and educational systems in Scotland are unique to Scotland.

Specific issues of political parties, Brexit etc. are a different matter.  These are matters of individual preference and have nothing to do with wanting independence.

Of course it has: if the majority of the electorate in England, given the relative population sizes, intend to pursue a political pathway that has minimal support here, and if the consequences of that are long term, then independence does become an option. 

In a democratic set up one has to go with the majority view...

Or decide not to be part of that democratic set-up.

[wigginhall]

It's also part of international law, that is, the right of nations to self-determination.  Of course, the UK lost many colonies like this, e.g., Ireland.  I don't think Scots see it in colonial terms. 

Brexit - a symptom of post-imperial decline?

[SteveH]

There are important differences, Sriram: for example, the legal and educational systems in Scotland are unique to Scotland.

The Christian denominations are different, as well.

[Robbie]

Not to mention the games - who tosses cabers down here in London?

Nice, friendly hairy cattle.

Always prepared to walk 500 miles.

Ian Rankin and J K Rowling.

What's not to love? Viva la difference!

Sririam you may not understand why the Scots want to be independent, or some of them, but so what? If they do they do.

[SteveH]

If they gaiin independence, and stay in, or re-join, the EU, I'll have to consider moving up there. I'm currently reading 'The Diary od a Bookseller, by Shaun Bythell, owner of the country's largest second-hand bookshop in Wigtown, down in the bottom left-hand corner of Scotia, which is an official 'Town of Books', like Hay-on-Wye, so I could move there: loads of bookshops, a literary festival, and still in the EU if that happens - couldn't be better. (I won't really move - I can't afford to - but I bet some people do. I've got a bit of Scottish ancestry, though, so maybe I'd be entitled to Scottish citizenship.)