'Ayia Napa: Foreign Office 'concerned' over Briton found guilty over rape claim'

[Nearly Sane]

Obviously difficult to judge but there certainly seem to be questions.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50952312

[SteveH]

There do indeed, and if she's telling the truth, I hope the rapists eventually get locked up, but it is at least possible in theory that she is indeed lying - it does happen.

[Nearly Sane]

There do indeed, and if she's telling the truth, I hope the rapists eventually get locked up, but it is at least possible in theory that she is indeed lying - it does happen.

In comparison to the number of rapes vs women lying what would you estimate the probability?

[Roses]

I suspect the woman is telling the truth, but one doesn't know for sure.

[Nearly Sane]

I suspect the woman is telling the truth, but one doesn't know for sure.

But there do seem to be definite questions about the process and investigation that need to be asked without assuming that she is telling the truth or lying. If the investigation and process is overall flawed, then her being guilty of lying cannot be found.

[jeremyp]

In comparison to the number of rapes vs women lying what would you estimate the probability?

You can’t judge individual cases by overall statistics.

[Udayana]

We don't have the facts so can't come to any conclusion with certainty, however I am making a donation to her legal appeal fund.

[Nearly Sane]

You can’t judge individual cases by overall statistics.

That's the point.

[SteveH]

In comparison to the number of rapes vs women lying what would you estimate the probability?

Probably quite small, and I think she is probably telling the truth, but the presumption of innocence is an importsant principle, and is in danger of getting lost.

[Nearly Sane]

Probably quite small, and I think she is probably telling the truth, but the presumption of innocence is an importsant principle, and is in danger of getting lost.

She's the one that has been found guilty.

[jeremyp]

Probably quite small, and I think she is probably telling the truth, but the presumption of innocence is an importsant principle, and is in danger of getting lost.

I assume you mean the presumption of innocence of the alleged rapists, in this case, As NS says, she has been convicted and so the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to her.

In any case, presumption of innocence is a legal thing. It does not mean we can't form an opinion of guilt if we choose and if you think she is probably telling the truth, then, by definition, you think the Israelis are probably guilty of raping her.

My personal opinion is that technically, she was lying when she made the accusation. That doesn't mean that the  police did not force a retraction under duress or that the other injustices  alleged by her lawyer aren't true.

Unfortunately, there is video on some of the Israelis' phones that seems to show the sex was consensual i.e. they were filming it, so my opinion is that while the Israelis aren't strictly guilty of rape, they are utter shits and really do deserve to go to prison and the woman deserves to be treated leniently and sympathetically.

[Nearly Sane]

I assume you mean the presumption of innocence of the alleged rapists, in this case, As NS says, she has been convicted and so the presumption of innocence doesn't apply to her.

In any case, presumption of innocence is a legal thing. It does not mean we can't form an opinion of guilt if we choose and if you think she is probably telling the truth, then, by definition, you think the Israelis are probably guilty of raping her.

My personal opinion is that technically, she was lying when she made the accusation. That doesn't mean that the  police did not force a retraction under duress or that the other injustices  alleged by her lawyer aren't true.

Unfortunately, there is video on some of the Israelis' phones that seems to show the sex was consensual i.e. they were filming it, so my opinion is that while the Israelis aren't strictly guilty of rape, they are utter shits and really do deserve to go to prison and the woman deserves to be treated leniently and sympathetically.

Nope, you can think she was telling the truth, or not lying,  without taking an opinion on whether the Israelis were probably likely of raping here. These things are in legal terms separate.

[Harrowby Hall]

Unfortunately, there is video on some of the Israelis' phones that seems to show the sex was consensual i.e. they were filming it, so my opinion is that while the Israelis aren't strictly guilty of rape, they are utter shits and really do deserve to go to prison and the woman deserves to be treated leniently and sympathetically.

Are you saying that if sexual activity is filmed it is therefore consensual?  Do you know whether or not the filmed material includes her giving consent?

Is consent genuinely given if it is the consequence of intimidation?

[jeremyp]

Nope, you can think she was telling the truth, or not lying,

She said the Israelis raped her. If she is telling the truth, by definition, they raped her.

These things are in legal terms separate.

In what way? She alleged rape. If she was telling the truth, rape occurred.

[Nearly Sane]

She said the Israelis raped her. If she is telling the truth, by definition, they raped her.
In what way? She alleged rape. If she was telling the truth, rape occurred.

Law isn't a binary here. That's why people are found not guilty rather than innocent.

[jeremyp]

Are you saying that if sexual activity is filmed it is therefore consensual?

Why on earth would you come to that conclusion?

It's what is in the video that matters.

Do you know whether or not the filmed material includes her giving consent?

I haven't seen it but the police say it appears to show consensual sex.

Is consent genuinely given if it is the consequence of intimidation?

What do you think?

Do you have  any evidence that intimidation occurred in this instance?

[jeremyp]

Law isn't a binary here. That's why people are found not guilty rather than innocent.

Do you agree that, if she said she was raped and she was telling the truth then rape occurred?

[Nearly Sane]

Do you agree that, if she said she was raped and she was telling the truth then rape occurred?

i'm talking about how the law works. Someone can believe something to be true without sufficient evidence for others to decide beyond reasonable doubt that it happened in that way. Your post portrayed the law as if it was binary. It isn't.

[SteveH]

Someone can believe something to be true ...

If you make a statement that you believe to be true, but which isn't, you are neither telling the truth nor lying. You are mistaken, which is the third possibility.

[Nearly Sane]

If you make a statement that you believe to be true, but which isn't, you are neither telling the truth nor lying. You are mistaken, which is the third possibility.

Then no one can be described as telling the truth ever because all we have is intersubjectivity.

[SteveH]

Then no one can be described as telling the truth ever because all we have is intersubjectivity.

What the hell has intersubjectivity got to do with anything?

[Nearly Sane]

What the hell has intersubjectivity got to do with anything?

Because we cannot establish objective truth your statement means that talking about someone 'telling the truth' means that no one can ever be described as 'telling the truth'. It sets an impossible standard.

[SteveH]

Because we cannot establish objective truth your statement means that talking about someone 'telling the truth' means that no one can ever be described as 'telling the truth'. It sets an impossible standard.

What nonsense you do come out with.

[Nearly Sane]

What nonsense you do come out with.

Why is it nonsense?

[jeremyp]

i'm talking about how the law works. Someone can believe something to be true without sufficient evidence for others to decide beyond reasonable doubt that it happened in that way. Your post portrayed the law as if it was binary. It isn't.

Sorry, I didn't realise this forum is a court of law.

It's a simple logical argument. She said she was raped. If she was telling the truth then she was raped. No amount of mealy mouthed "it's not how the law works" is going to change that.