Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 248403 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2000 on: May 22, 2020, 07:26:21 PM »
Maybe "need" is the wrong verb. "Want" might be better, but in the context of posting on a message board where the main purpose is to solicit other people's opinions, the distinction is not really that important.

I don't see why you are so reluctant to provide the information asked for.
Exactly.

Gordon

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2001 on: May 22, 2020, 07:30:15 PM »
If "the back of the net" is showing yourself as a sneering arse, I'd agree.

The current bunch of Tory fuckwits regularly provide ample grounds to be sneered at - and deservedly so.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2002 on: May 22, 2020, 07:30:36 PM »
But why would I want any specific individual to comment on any specific thing? If they have no knowledge of it?  I am reluctant to link to Facebook and Twitter for (1) the same reason that I prefer the Guardian to the Times or The Telegraph because of access, (2) because it links in some cases to people I Know, (3) because in some cases it might allow more identification of me than I generally do here.
But that's the whole point of the MB - someone posts somethings and we engage with each other by commenting on what has been posted. But if you are unwilling to provide the information to allow that ebb and flow then there is really very little point in a message board.

If you are concerned over privacy (I'm not convinced you are - or perhaps you are actually Howard Begg) then don't make the post in the first place. And you can usually provide sufficient information to elicit discussion without risking privacy.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2003 on: May 22, 2020, 07:33:10 PM »
But that's the whole point of the MB - someone posts somethings and we engage with each other by commenting on what has been posted. But if you are unwilling to provide the information to allow that ebb and flow then there is really very little point in a message board.

If you are concerned over privacy (I'm not convinced you are - or perhaps you are actually Howard Begg) then don't make the post in the first place. And you can usually provide sufficient information to elicit discussion without risking privacy.
I am not convinced you are not convinced.

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2004 on: May 22, 2020, 07:33:55 PM »
Yo are correct in your presumption. And I can and do ring friends who are still working to ask them how they are and how much I value their work, so I suppose I'm lucky to be able to express my thanks in a more direct fashion.
When landlords and mortgage lenders start accepting claps in lieu of actual money, I'll start clapping. Until then, I'll support politicians that support the NHS.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2005 on: May 22, 2020, 07:36:30 PM »
Does Boris like you in the cheerleading outfit?
Criticising people who sneer in the way that article does does not imply I an a cheerleader for Boris.

If you disagree with me about something, that's fine, but the insults are beneath you.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2006 on: May 22, 2020, 07:36:56 PM »
When landlords and mortgage lenders start accepting claps in lieu of actual money, I'll start clapping. Until then, I'll support politicians that support the NHS.
That point would seem better addressed to Prof D in context rather than Trent.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2007 on: May 22, 2020, 07:38:02 PM »
Criticising people who sneer in the way that article does does not imply I an a cheerleader for Boris.

If you disagree with me about something, that's fine, but the insults are beneath you.
Yawn.

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2008 on: May 22, 2020, 07:39:25 PM »
But why would I want any specific individual to comment on any specific thing?
Nobody has said you want any specific individual to comment, but the fact you posted here leads to a reasonable inference that you want other people generally to comment.

Quote
If they have no knowledge of it?  I am reluctant to link to Facebook and Twitter for (1) the same reason that I prefer the Guardian to the Times or The Telegraph because of access, (2) because it links in some cases to people I Know, (3) because in some cases it might allow more identification of me than I generally do here.

If you are not prepared to link to your own sources, that's not our problem, it's yours. Perhaps you could provide the link and quotes from it.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2009 on: May 22, 2020, 07:40:12 PM »
The current bunch of Tory fuckwits regularly provide ample grounds to be sneered at - and deservedly so.
I prefer reasoned argument, not sneers.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2010 on: May 22, 2020, 07:41:26 PM »
That point would seem better addressed to Prof D in context rather than Trent.
I was replying in support of Trent. Replying to somebody does not necessarily imply disagreement.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2011 on: May 22, 2020, 07:41:41 PM »
When landlords and mortgage lenders start accepting claps in lieu of actual money, I'll start clapping. Until then, I'll support politicians that support the NHS.
Like I said it isn't one or the other. I've always supported politicians that support the NHS - indeed campaigned very actively for the last government that genuinely did support the NHS, in my opinion.

But that doesn't mean I won't clap for the NHS workers and other front line workers - they deserve our recognition through the symbolism of the clapping (there is very little else we can do at this immediate point) and they also deserve the support of a government that genuinely believes in the NHS and it prepared to put in the resources to back the NHS - that we don't have at the moment and, sadly, we are unlikely to be able to change that for a while.

Anyhow it seems that next Thursday's clap will be the last one and I think that is probably right.

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2012 on: May 22, 2020, 07:41:56 PM »
Yawn.

I stand correct. Clearly insults are not beneath you.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2013 on: May 22, 2020, 07:43:14 PM »
Nobody has said you want any specific individual to comment, but the fact you posted here leads to a reasonable inference that you want other people generally to comment.

If you are not prepared to link to your own sources, that's not our problem, it's yours. Perhaps you could provide the link and quotes from it.
I would have been happy to expand. Indeed I did when I found a source that wasn't problematic for the issues i have explained. And Prof D further covered that he knew of some idiot's attempt to clap for Johnson.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2014 on: May 22, 2020, 07:43:24 PM »
I am not convinced you are not convinced.
Why?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2015 on: May 22, 2020, 07:44:19 PM »
I stand correct. Clearly insults are not beneath you.
That I find your position tedious is not an insult.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2016 on: May 22, 2020, 07:45:41 PM »
Why?
Because you have a modicum of intelligence and my post was saying that I found his position annoying. 

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2017 on: May 22, 2020, 07:47:40 PM »
That I find your position tedious is not an insult.
The cheerleading one was, or at least mockery

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2018 on: May 22, 2020, 07:53:28 PM »
Because you have a modicum of intelligence ...
Thank you - praise indeed.

... and my post was saying that I found his position annoying.
Sorry I think we are talking at cross purposes. In reply 2002 my lack of conviction was over your claim that privacy concerns were what preventing you providing details about who wanted to clap for Sturgeon or Boris.

I was asking why you were not convinced that I was not convinced - in other words implying that I was convinced that you'd failed to provide this information on privacy grounds.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2019 on: May 22, 2020, 07:57:57 PM »
Thank you - praise indeed.
Sorry I think we are talking at cross purposes. In reply 2002 my lack of conviction was over your claim that privacy concerns were what preventing you providing details about who wanted to clap for Sturgeon or Boris.

I was asking why you were not convinced that I was not convinced - in other words implying that I was convinced that you'd failed to provide this information on privacy grounds.
I appreciate your mind reading. However I have explained my issue, and given when I found a non direct link, I provided it, I still don't see why you think I was not telling the truth about my motivation.

ad_orientem

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2020 on: May 22, 2020, 08:10:30 PM »
So you are saying that people who are known to have coronavirus should be sent to a hospital with a lot of vulnerable people in it (by definition).  I'm not saying that is necessarily the wrong thing to do but you need to be aware of what the consequences of that are.

Of course there are risks in sending corona patients to hospital, but I was under the impression that certain hospitals had been set aside for corona patients, in which case there should have been no hesitation in sending them to hospital. And anyway, age shouldn't come into it, especially since their hospitals are still within capacity. In any case, what has happened is that elderly patients have been abandoned, hence the high death rate. A scandal.
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flower girl

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2021 on: May 22, 2020, 08:58:36 PM »
Of course there are risks in sending corona patients to hospital, but I was under the impression that certain hospitals had been set aside for corona patients, in which case there should have been no hesitation in sending them to hospital. And anyway, age shouldn't come into it, especially since their hospitals are still within capacity. In any case, what has happened is that elderly patients have been abandoned, hence the high death rate. A scandal.

I've been following the John's Hopkins data and have seen quite an increase in the UK numbers of cases and deaths.  Yesterday, I watched a PBS Frontline documentary on one Italian hospital and one of their doctors. It was very well done and showed how quickly they struggled with lack of capacity.  I wondered if you all there are experiencing anything like that.  We almost did in NYCity (I have one son who lives on Manhattan.) But, the governor there ordered temporary hospitals built, and they built quite a few!

On the Florida front, I was following the data out of our Department of Health, when I noticed a huge spike in the influenza/pneumonia deaths at the end of April (as the season usually is significantly ebbing.)  Right after that, the governor ordered that the pneumonia numbers be taken out of the tally.  That, and reports from hospitals and coroners that the governor is pressuring them to not report the numbers of COVID19 deaths has me concerned.  The deliberate deception seems criminal to me. 
I wonder now if the most intelligent being in this world is actually a virus.  Me

Enki

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2022 on: May 22, 2020, 09:34:18 PM »
Like I said it isn't one or the other. I've always supported politicians that support the NHS - indeed campaigned very actively for the last government that genuinely did support the NHS, in my opinion.

But that doesn't mean I won't clap for the NHS workers and other front line workers - they deserve our recognition through the symbolism of the clapping (there is very little else we can do at this immediate point) and they also deserve the support of a government that genuinely believes in the NHS and it prepared to put in the resources to back the NHS - that we don't have at the moment and, sadly, we are unlikely to be able to change that for a while.

Anyhow it seems that next Thursday's clap will be the last one and I think that is probably right.

My wife and I have clapped every Thursday. Our reasons are quite simple. In this extraordinary situation we feel we needed to come together to support all the frontline workers and especially the NHS workers in our small way. We also felt that these weekly claps were a unifying influence for people of all ages and hopefully strengthened the resolve of the whole community to be continually aware and observe the lockdown as much as possible. We do however accept that it is entirely appropriate that this response is starting to outlive its usefulness and probably needs to finish sometime soon.

My wife worked all her working life as a nurse in the NHS, one of our sons is a firefighter and one of our grandaughters works as a carer, but we all feel that at such an extraordinary time as this any criticisms we may have of the NHS(e.g. the Mid Staffordhire debacle, the NHS's almost indiscriminate wastage, the way Bevan bought the consultants' backing by 'stuffing their mouths with gold', the graduate entry only policy of the RCN or the horrendously expensive and failed National IT system, and many more) are not forgotten but put on the back burner because the human values of the selflessness, heroic dedication and bloody hard work of the key workers are the things that are uppermost in our minds at the moment.

Constructive criticism of the present government and how they are handling this crisis is certainly ok by us. We have plenty of criticisms ourselves, just as we had of all sorts of Health Ministers and Prime Ministers from both parties, especially from Thatcher onwards, and not just Tory ones. However when I read these articles by John Crace(as suggested by Gordon), with their criticism cocooned in a veneer of sneering personal insults, it just turns me off completely. In my opinion such journalism is generally counterproductive although, no doubt, personally satisfying to some.

I didn't vote Tory at the last election by the way. In fact I've never voted Tory in my life.
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Enki

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2023 on: May 22, 2020, 09:49:46 PM »
My friend has just got out of hospital. Hurrah

Reading back, I've just come across this, NS.  Great news. 
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2024 on: May 22, 2020, 09:50:08 PM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52779356

Please, please let this mean he will be forced to resign.