Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 248854 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2425 on: June 05, 2020, 12:24:44 PM »
The British Government has not handled this crisis well at all, very badly in fact. We have the second highest death rate in the world, the US has the highest. :o

Belgium and Spain have higher deaths per million than us.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-covid-deaths-per-million
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2426 on: June 05, 2020, 12:28:55 PM »
I doubt if you or I would have done any better.

I actually think you both would have.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2427 on: June 05, 2020, 01:21:45 PM »
I actually think you both would have.

Well actually, now you mention it, I think we probably would too. It's difficult to put myself back in the situation that pertained in mid March but I think I would have started the lockdown a week earlier, although, with hindsight, it is clear two weeks earlier was necessary, but I didn't know that back then. I would also have instituted track and trace straight away and started ramping up the testing capacity straight away.   
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SusanDoris

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2428 on: June 05, 2020, 01:49:55 PM »
You really believe that?

Wow.

No wonder they keep getting elected.
You misrepresent my post by not quoting it in full.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2429 on: June 05, 2020, 01:59:57 PM »
You misrepresent my post by not quoting it in full.

No. The second part of your post was not relevant. You were talking about your local MP. I asked about the government, so I quoted the relevant part of your post.
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wigginhall

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2430 on: June 05, 2020, 03:03:15 PM »
I agree that hindsight is very precise.  I mean it's easy to say that the govt were slow to do various things.  However, they seemed to be slow on everything, thus, lockdown, testing, PPE, contact tracing.  I know that some people believe that pandemics had traditionally  been modelled on flu, and people were caught flat-footed, by it being different.  Of course, some skeptics still say it's like flu.
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Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2431 on: June 05, 2020, 05:37:53 PM »
I agree that hindsight is very precise.  I mean it's easy to say that the govt were slow to do various things.  However, they seemed to be slow on everything, thus, lockdown, testing, PPE, contact tracing.  I know that some people believe that pandemics had traditionally  been modelled on flu, and people were caught flat-footed, by it being different.  Of course, some skeptics still say it's like flu.

I don't think this can be put down to mistakes by people "doing their best",  mistakes that are easy to see in "hindsight". 

When someone makes honest mistakes they take responsibility for them and change their approach to correct and avoid similar mistakes again. They don't just keep heaping on layers of lies and pretending how they were right and acted "with integrity" all along.

They don't continue ignoring those who were trying to show them, from the start, what could work and what would not. They are on the job and putting things right - not hiding away refusing to let any light in.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

SusanDoris

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2432 on: June 05, 2020, 05:47:26 PM »
I have just googled total covid 19 deaths in china. The answer comes up as 4634. How many of you believe that?
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2433 on: June 05, 2020, 05:51:52 PM »
I have just googled total covid 19 deaths in china. The answer comes up as 4634. How many of you believe that?

Nobody I know. Your point?
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SusanDoris

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2434 on: June 05, 2020, 06:20:27 PM »
Nobody I know. Your point?
I'm pretty sure I posted somewhere above that I'm fed up with listening over and over again to 'Britain has the second highest death toll', so I was wondering if there would be any interesting comments, that's all.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2435 on: June 05, 2020, 06:25:55 PM »
I'm pretty sure I posted somewhere above that I'm fed up with listening over and over again to 'Britain has the second highest death toll', so I was wondering if there would be any interesting comments, that's all.

I think most people are aware of the shortcomings of the Chinese authorities when dealing with the truth.

The issue in my mind is how we have become one of the worst affected countries in Europe when we were told we were well prepared. For goodness sake Greece has done better than us, with a shit health service and an economy that was already fairly well hobbled.

For all the talk of following the science we really have not, we've sort of meandered around in a field about two counties short of it.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2436 on: June 05, 2020, 08:28:36 PM »
I'm pretty sure I posted somewhere above that I'm fed up with listening over and over again to 'Britain has the second highest death toll', so I was wondering if there would be any interesting comments, that's all.
Apparently aside from the denials Boris Johnson(Conservative) told the Italians he wanted Herd Immunity.

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2437 on: June 05, 2020, 09:02:35 PM »
I don't think this can be put down to mistakes by people "doing their best",  mistakes that are easy to see in "hindsight".
What would be the motive for the current situation. 

Quote
When someone makes honest mistakes they take responsibility for them
Do they? In my experience, they frequently try to cover their arses. It's particularly a problem if their job depend on it.

Quote
and change their approach to correct and avoid similar mistakes again.

For that to work properly, you have to have a culture where people can adit to their mistakes and learn from them. In the case of a democratic government, that's problematic because you inevitably get pilloried for your mistakes.

Quote
They don't continue ignoring those who were trying to show them, from the start, what could work and what would not. They are on the job and putting things right - not hiding away refusing to let any light in.

The government has plenty of scientific advisors telling them what they should be doing. Probably they are getting conflicting advice even from these people. Why would they listen to random people on the Internet screaming at them?

The government has made a lot of mistakes and it would be great if we could sit down after this and dispassionately analyse what went wrong and how to do it better next time, but too many people will have too much to lose for that to happen. And I'm not just talking about the political appointees. The civil service is also not up to the job and nor are parts of the NHS (I'm thinking of the procurement department here).
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2438 on: June 05, 2020, 09:08:11 PM »
when we were told we were well prepared.
Who told us we were well prepared?

Quote
For goodness sake Greece has done better than us, with a shit health service and an economy that was already fairly well hobbled.
It's almost beyond belief isn't it. Maybe you should ask yourself if Greece is more honest about COVID19 than it was about its fiscal situation.

Incidentally the whole population of Greece is only slightly bigger than London.

Quote
For all the talk of following the science we really have not, we've sort of meandered around in a field about two counties short of it.
When this started, the science was pretty sketchy.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2439 on: June 05, 2020, 09:12:40 PM »
Quote
Who told us we were well prepared?

Here:

Quote
Let’s not forget – we already have a fantastic NHS, fantastic testing systems and fantastic surveillance of the spread of disease.

We will make sure the NHS gets all the support it needs to continue their brilliant response to the virus so far.

The plan does not set out what the government will do, it sets out the steps we could take at the right time along the basis of the scientific advice.

Our country remains extremely well prepared, as it has been since the outbreak began in Wuhan several months ago.

Boris Johnson 3 March 2020 (I'd forgotten he'd said we had fantastic testing - still so many lies to choose from!)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 09:42:25 PM by Trentvoyager »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2440 on: June 05, 2020, 09:14:28 PM »
Who told us we were well prepared
Matt Hancock and Boris Johnson. And not only well prepared but better prepared.  Just like the world leading teach and trace programme. Do you think lying is good?

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2441 on: June 05, 2020, 09:27:46 PM »
As to Greece. I know it has a smaller population but per head it has done much better. I don't usually quote the Telegraph but here are the details:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/greece-moved-early-decisively-keep-covid-19/

Note the 2 week mandatory quarantine for travellers from abroad at the beginning of their response to Covid 19.
I believe Pritti Patel,in a rare moment of clarity and good sense, put this forward but it was vetoed at cabinet level.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2442 on: June 06, 2020, 01:05:54 AM »

SusanDoris

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2443 on: June 06, 2020, 06:46:36 AM »
JeremyP


I had hoped you would comment as what you say is from a cooler, more impartial point of view I think, so thank you for doing so.
Do you think that, when post-pandemic statistics come out, will be the position of the death toll in Britain? An impossible question, I know! I suppose we'll never know which deaths have been included by European countries for instance and which have not. It seems that here anyone who died, whether directly from covid 19 or not is included if they were tested and found to have it in their systems.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2444 on: June 06, 2020, 08:27:21 AM »
JeremyP


I had hoped you would comment as what you say is from a cooler, more impartial point of view I think, so thank you for doing so.
Do you think that, when post-pandemic statistics come out, will be the position of the death toll in Britain? An impossible question, I know! I suppose we'll never know which deaths have been included by European countries for instance and which have not. It seems that here anyone who died, whether directly from covid 19 or not is included if they were tested and found to have it in their systems.

So I quote from our own PM and my post isn't more impartial?

You are determined not to acknowledge the truth of the situation. You ignore the lies told by the PM and try to imply that other posters are being hot-headed and more emotional, whilst all they are doing is quoting exactly what the government has said.

And please let us not forget that until this government was forced to it was quite willing to conveniently leave out the number of deaths in care homes.

I'm not the one being "partial" here. You are.
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Roses

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2445 on: June 06, 2020, 08:35:15 AM »
So I quote from our own PM and my post isn't more impartial?

You are determined not to acknowledge the truth of the situation. You ignore the lies told by the PM and try to imply that other posters are being hot-headed and more emotional, whilst all they are doing is quoting exactly what the government has said.

And please let us not forget that until this government was forced to it was quite willing to conveniently leave out the number of deaths in care homes.

I'm not the one being "partial" here. You are.

Spot on.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2446 on: June 06, 2020, 08:58:16 AM »
As to Greece. I know it has a smaller population but per head it has done much better.
That is not the point I was trying to make. Greece's entire population is only a little bit bigger than the population of London, but Greece is 130 times bigger than London in terms of area.

The British government has to deal with Greece but packed into a tiny area and another 45 million people. Can you not see that the magnitude of the task facing them was somewhat larger.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2447 on: June 06, 2020, 09:09:00 AM »
That is not the point I was trying to make. Greece's entire population is only a little bit bigger than the population of London, but Greece is 130 times bigger than London in terms of area.

The British government has to deal with Greece but packed into a tiny area and another 45 million people. Can you not see that the magnitude of the task facing them was somewhat larger.

Yes I can. It doesn't change the fact that the responses Greece took in the face of the pandemic were more timely, more well planned and ultimately more effective in combating the disease.

There are variables in every country and due to our position as a major hub for international travel we were more exposed, which means we should have seen the need for an earlier shutdown.

I suspect the scale of infection was always going to be greater here than in Greece. It is just that the countries who reacted earlier did much better, the countries who had proper systems in place for tracing did better, and the places that had clear, precise communication did much better.

Of course it would have helped our care homes enormously if any notice had been paid to the recommendations of Exercise Cygnus (Telegraph again, the absent Ippy would be pleased):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/28/exercise-cygnus-uncovered-pandemic-warnings-buried-government/


« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 09:17:26 AM by Trentvoyager »
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2448 on: June 06, 2020, 09:44:19 AM »
JeremyP


I had hoped you would comment as what you say is from a cooler, more impartial point of view I think, so thank you for doing so.
Do you think that, when post-pandemic statistics come out, will be the position of the death toll in Britain? An impossible question, I know! I suppose we'll never know which deaths have been included by European countries for instance and which have not. It seems that here anyone who died, whether directly from covid 19 or not is included if they were tested and found to have it in their systems.

It is an impossible question and perhaps the wrong statistic. "People who have died after being tested and found positive" is an easy and reliable metric to collect and thus is a useful indicator of how the epidemic is progressing. However, it doesn't tell you the "death toll". I would argue that there is no indicator that we are currently collecting that gives an accurate idea of the impact of coronavirus.

Here are some anecdotes that illustrate the problems.

The father of a friend of mine died in early April. He was about 90 years old and suffering from dementia and other health conditions, one of which got him. He was in a care home which meant the staff and doctors were unwilling to send hm to hospital for treatment because he wouldn't have been allowed back in to the home after he had recovered (if he had recovered). Instead they treated him at the home and it was mostly palliative, so, of course, he died. He was a casualty of the pandemic even though he never tested positive for coronavirus nor did his death certificate mention coronavirus (at least I think not, I didn't see it).

The husband of a friend of my parents was very sick in a care home. He had been tested several times for coronavirus and always been found negative. He had no symptoms of COVID19. He died and his death certificate had "suspected coronavirus" on it, even though there had never been any question of him having it while he was still alive. This particular issue of misreporting works both ways: I'm sure that there are lots of people who have died of things like pneumonia who should have had "coronavirus" on their death certificates but didn't. So even the "deaths where coronavirus is mentioned on the death certificate" measure has errors (and the ONS publications always acknowledge that, but the error bars get ignored by the media usually).

The excess deaths measure might seem like the best measure for the overall impact, but it is problematic too. Excess deaths measures deaths brought forward. Many people who die from COVID 19 would have died anyway over the course of the year or two afterwards. This time next year we may look back at the excess deaths for March 2020 to March 2021 and find no excess deaths for the whole period. In fact, unless there is a recurrence of coronavirus, next winter, I predict we will see substantially fewer deaths than normal.

I think the best measure for the impact of coronavirus is number of years of life lost i.e. how many more years might they have expected to live for had they not died from COVID 19. For the two people I mentioned above, this would be quite a small number. For a twenty year old, it might be sixty years. It gives a better idea of the impact of coronavirus than just counting deaths.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2449 on: June 06, 2020, 10:03:30 AM »
I suspect the scale of infection was always going to be greater here than in Greece.
Of course it was. The UK is almost unique in its population size, population density being a democracy and having a twat for a prime minister. The government has made a lot of mistakes, some of which are understandable and some of which are incomprehensible. However, making league tables of countries really isn't constructive.

We need to learn from this experience. We need to learn how to do better next time. Screaming about how much better Greece or New Zealand were won't help because Greece and New Zealand are not the UK. We need measures that work for the UK.
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