Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 239903 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4425 on: July 20, 2021, 10:33:54 AM »
hmm.. I ordered one yesterday afternoon ... to be delivered this afternoon according to Royal Mail text msg.

I expect that as you can't now rely on people social distancing or wearing masks people will want to test before meeting relatives or friends etc.
For various reasons, not least that we have school aged kids, lateral flow testing has become part of our routine. It isn't hard and doesn't take long and it is certainly useful before going to meet people you may be concerned about in tests of contracting the virus.

However the tests aren't as reliable as the PCR tests so the key is to test regularly.

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4426 on: July 20, 2021, 11:28:43 AM »
It is basic evolutionary theory.

Mutations are random events which occur when the virus is being replicated in a host human - the more the level of the virus in the population the more mutation events will occur.

The mutations may, or may not, change the characteristic of the virus - specifically making it more or less transmissible than the virus before the mutation or more or less dangerous in terms of severity of disease than the virus before the mutation.

If the mutation is more transmissible it will be more likely to infect people and more likely to infect more people and therefore there will be greater overall replication of the new mutant and it will replicant and survive better and therefore become dominant. It its transmissibility is less than the pre-mutation variant it will do the reverse and will likely disappear fairly rapidly. If there is no difference in transmissibility than the original virus it will likely just transmit itself alongside the original.

The issue of severity of disease is different as it doesn't impact on replication unless it it so severe that it kills the host before replicating or is retained for much longer in the body before the immune response deals with it.

So in terms of a pandemic your worst nightmare is the combination of a virus mutation that is more transmissible and causes more severe disease. But your friend (up to a point) it a virus that is more transmissible because causes less serious disease, allowing transmission (and population level immunity to develop) while only causing very mild illness.

Mutations occur randomly, and the Covid variants appeared before the vaccination rollout. Suppose there is a population of frogs in a pond, and they like to jump about on lily pads. There are many lily pads, so the frogs don't need to be able to jump very far. If some of the lily pads are removed, the frogs with the stronger legs may out-compete the weaker ones and become the dominant frog. If we leave all the lily pads in, there will be no use for stronger legs and so the weaker ones will stay dominant.

Compare this with the delta variant of the virus, detected in India in late 2020. India's second wave, which is predominantly caused by delta, started in early March, and peaked in early May. The vaccine rollout began 15 January and by May, 130 million first jabs had been given. Perhaps delta was more able to be transmitted than its predecessor in the face of the immune pressure generated by the vaccines? There is a correlation between its rise and the vaccination rollout, similarly in the UK's third wave. Of course correlation does not have to mean causation.

If we had not had the vaccines, the characteristic in delta which gave it the ability to be transmitted more easily may not have been useful and hence delta would not have become dominant.

Quote from SAGE report 7/7/21:
There are four major risks associated with high numbers of infections. These are an increase in hospitalisations and deaths, more ‘Long-COVID’; workforce absences (including in the NHS); and the increased risk of new variants emerging. The combination of high prevalence and high levels of vaccination creates the conditions in which an immune escape variant is most likely to emerge. The likelihood of this happening is unknown, but such a variant would present a significant risk both in the UK and internationally.

So a question in relation to this quote is, are the vaccines the cause of the increased infections? Some will say it is the unvaccinated who are the cause, since they are the main group being infected. But these are people who were unlikely to be infected in the first place, being younger. So it seems the responsibility is with the vaccines, which have put a selective pressure on the more infectious delta variant causing it to become dominant and infect primarily unvaccinated people.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4427 on: July 20, 2021, 06:05:43 PM »
In the UK's case it's Johnson's fault for allowing large case numbers of Delta which are his direct responsibility as he elected not to stop flights from India at the same time as he did from Pakistan and Bangladesh, even though India had a higher rate of infections at the time. The lure of a trade deal with Modi being his prime objective. With high case numbers and high vaccination rates here, it puts pressure on the virus to change so that it can get round the vaccine, but it's the high number of cases that allows the virus to have the "space" to mutate in. 

If we'd had high vaccination rates but low case rates this issue would not have been such a worry. We were heading in that direction until Delta.

Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4428 on: July 21, 2021, 10:51:53 AM »
In the UK's case it's Johnson's fault for allowing large case numbers of Delta which are his direct responsibility as he elected not to stop flights from India at the same time as he did from Pakistan and Bangladesh, even though India had a higher rate of infections at the time. The lure of a trade deal with Modi being his prime objective. With high case numbers and high vaccination rates here, it puts pressure on the virus to change so that it can get round the vaccine, but it's the high number of cases that allows the virus to have the "space" to mutate in. 

If we'd had high vaccination rates but low case rates this issue would not have been such a worry. We were heading in that direction until Delta.

Hi Trent,
OK, so the Flemish vet Vanden Bossche thinks that severe lockdown and vaccines that are 'leaky' select for the more infectious variants once the latter are present in the population. His main argument is that if you look at how vaccination is usually done, it's carried out at a time when the patient is not exposed, or is at very low risk of exposure, to the pathogen and can build up immunity without being infected. With this pandemic, we are vaccinating at the same time as infection is occurring. Because of this continued infection, the virus has as you say more chance of mutating, and when a mutant that can evade the vaccine appears it escapes into the population and becomes dominant. It's not a simple case of get the jab, wait a few months for full immunity then its safe to risk infection. The risk is already high.

In the UK's case, the evolutionary pattern seems to be: prolonged severe infection prevention measures put pressure on wild type, leading to the more infectious alpha mutation escaping infection prevention measures. This leads to a second wave of infection. Then vaccination starts, puts increasing immune pressure on Alpha, so infection with Alpha declines and second wave ends. Then Delta arrives (I didn't vote for Boris, you'll be pleased to know), is even more infectious and severe, so it infects the young and can evade vaccines, leading to a third wave. However, vaccination and younger hosts mean morbidity and mortality are lower (so far).

My thought is that if we could somehow have prevented the more infectious variants occurring we could have achieved herd immunity against the wild type. Vanden Bossche thinks that the immunity acquired through natural infection is 'richer' than that acquired through the current vaccines, and prevents re-infection not just by the wild-type but by more infectious variants, as it also involves natural antibodies that have a broad specificity.

But when the variants cause high levels of infection, this innate immunity cannot cope with the high viral load in the population. So having lengthy lockdown and vaccine-induced resistance that select for more infectious variants, ultimately leads to higher infection which in turn reduces our innate antibodies' ability to deal with the virus and achieve herd immunity.

So in hindsight, we have to go back to the initial infection prevention measures to work out how best to protect the vulnerable, prevent variants becoming dominant and allow enough healthy people to be infected and develop herd immunity.

The key is to lock down while working out how to treat the disease, then as soon as this is achieved allow young people to maintain their naturally high levels of innate immunity, letting them go back to school and young people to university/work.

Also when a person develops symptoms they should isolate, but not when asymptomatically infected, as the latter shed less virus than the former.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 11:19:37 AM by Spud »

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4429 on: July 21, 2021, 11:51:20 AM »
Thanks for your lengthy and detailed reply.

I don't know enough about vaccines to be able to rebut any of the claims made by this vet, although I doubt the claim that "prolonged severe infection prevention measures put pressure on wild type".

I would say that the issues that is overlooked in your reply is Long Covid. Yes we have deaths under control (presently, let's not get over confident) but we are only just beginning to understand Long Covid. Figures suggest somewhere between 10 - 20% of cases will lead to LC. Remember LC is not dependent on severity of disease and yet can be very debilitating for months, and by the looks of it probably years (we don't know that for sure yet) but the organs affected e.g. Lungs, heart and brain are not things we should simply be ignoring in favour of allowing "enough healthy people to be infected and develop herd immunity."

That is an awful lot of people affected and also importantly an awful lot of hospital resources used up.

I don't know what the answer is. I know what the answer isn't, but we are doing that already.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Stranger

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4431 on: July 21, 2021, 12:25:13 PM »
Hi Trent,
OK, so the Flemish vet Vanden Bossche thinks that severe lockdown and vaccines that are 'leaky' select for the more infectious variants once the latter are present in the population.
See the link for a devastating rebuttal of Vanden Bossche's claims. Note too that he isn't quite what he claims to be, so while he has a background in virology he hasn't been active for quarter of a century, with no credible peer reviewed publications since 1995.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-pseudoscience/doomsday-prophecy-dr-geert-vanden-bossche

In every field there are charlatans and mavericks looking to peddle mistruths - and the field of virology and vaccines is no exception. Vanden Bossche is basically Andrew Wakefield but with a veterinary rather than a human medical background.

Roses

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4432 on: July 21, 2021, 12:31:16 PM »
Wakefield caused no end of problems by discouraging parents from letting their children have the MMR vaccine. People like him should be struct of the medical register. >:(
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4433 on: July 21, 2021, 12:36:04 PM »
Wakefield caused no end of problems by discouraging parents from letting their children have the MMR vaccine. People like him should be struct of the medical register. >:(
He was struck off the medical register, but not until he had created havoc with his claims based on fraudulent and unethical data.

Roses

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4434 on: July 21, 2021, 01:30:52 PM »
He was struck off the medical register, but not until he had created havoc with his claims based on fraudulent and unethical data.

My eldest grandson (19) didn't have the MMR vaccine as a small child as our daughter took notice of the autism claims. He was diagnosed with grade 1 autism when he was two. Our other four grandchildren had the vaccine, they don't have the condition.
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Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4435 on: July 22, 2021, 08:58:00 AM »
See the link for a devastating rebuttal of Vanden Bossche's claims. Note too that he isn't quite what he claims to be, so while he has a background in virology he hasn't been active for quarter of a century, with no credible peer reviewed publications since 1995.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-pseudoscience/doomsday-prophecy-dr-geert-vanden-bossche

In every field there are charlatans and mavericks looking to peddle mistruths - and the field of virology and vaccines is no exception. Vanden Bossche is basically Andrew Wakefield but with a veterinary rather than a human medical background.
He is at liberty to give medical advice, as long as he doesn't falsely represent himself as a qualified doctor of medicine or falsely claim to be licensed.

He doesn't come across to me as a charlatan. I think your and Stranger's links are worth a read, but so is his website. Up until now I've mainly just watched some of his YouTube videos, but have now started to read the FAQs section on his website. He's quite hard to understand, because of his 'suboptimal' English!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 09:02:07 AM by Spud »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4436 on: July 22, 2021, 09:28:28 AM »

Australia and New Zealand pull out of Rugby League World Cup because of Covid and concerns about how it is managed in UK - but FREEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/57925720

Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4437 on: July 22, 2021, 09:32:09 AM »
He is at liberty to give medical advice,
...

He is, but that doesn't stop it being complete bollocks.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4438 on: July 22, 2021, 10:26:06 AM »
He doesn't come across to me as a charlatan.
Andrew Wakefield didn't come across as a charlatan - but he was.

I think your and Stranger's links are worth a read, but so is his website. Up until now I've mainly just watched some of his YouTube videos, but have now started to read the FAQs section on his website. He's quite hard to understand, because of his 'suboptimal' English!
I posted the link as it contains a strong rebuttal - but realistically a bunch of opinion pieces, whether from Vanden Bossche or anyone else aren't worth a bean unless they are based on sound scientific evidence. And that's the difference, Vanden Bossche's claims fly in the face of the science and the evidence.

This isn't a kind of 'one person's view', 'another person's view' - well we'll agree to differ and each person's opinion is equally valid. We are in the world of science and evidence - opinions not based on (or contradictory to) the scientific evidence aren't worth a bean. It doesn't matter how 'credible' someone comes across as, this isn't about personality but about evidence.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 10:43:19 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4440 on: July 24, 2021, 08:16:42 PM »

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4441 on: July 25, 2021, 03:19:06 PM »
Andrew Wakefield didn't come across as a charlatan - but he was.

Didn't Andrew Wakefield have an investment of some kind that involved an alternative product or approach to  MMR, and his motivation was to discredit MMR to his own financial benefit?

If he had stuck to gastro-enterology he would still have a job in the NHS and not be stuck on some obscure planet in the Trump universe.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4443 on: July 26, 2021, 11:07:00 AM »
Looks like the reported case rate has taken a nosedive over the last few days. Fingers crossed that this is a real effect.
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Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4444 on: July 26, 2021, 11:12:11 AM »
Andrew Wakefield didn't come across as a charlatan - but he was.
I posted the link as it contains a strong rebuttal - but realistically a bunch of opinion pieces, whether from Vanden Bossche or anyone else aren't worth a bean unless they are based on sound scientific evidence. And that's the difference, Vanden Bossche's claims fly in the face of the science and the evidence.

This isn't a kind of 'one person's view', 'another person's view' - well we'll agree to differ and each person's opinion is equally valid. We are in the world of science and evidence - opinions not based on (or contradictory to) the scientific evidence aren't worth a bean. It doesn't matter how 'credible' someone comes across as, this isn't about personality but about evidence.
Time is needed to know whether he is correct or not, about a variant that can completely evade the vaccines. One thing that has been shown recently is that the current vaccines do not prevent infection (at least, not very effectively). This study suggests a figure of 39% effectiveness of Pfizer: "Israel says Pfizer Covid vaccine is just 39% effective as delta spreads, but still prevents severe illness" It seems this supports Vanden Bossche's ideas. Theoretically the vaccines would reduce infection indirectly through reducing the symptoms that aid transmission, such as coughing. But it seems the delta virus is still able to evade vaccinal antibodies, which was one of Vanden Bossche's predictions.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 11:15:40 AM by Spud »

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4445 on: July 26, 2021, 11:35:01 AM »
Another possible reason for rising cases in vaccinated people is that vaccinal antibodies may be waning.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4446 on: July 26, 2021, 11:41:45 AM »
Another possible reason for rising cases in vaccinated people is that vaccinal antibodies may be waning.
Fortunately it seems that case numbers are now starting to fall, but whether this will continue when the impact of 'Freedom day' changes kick in probably in a week's time is anyone's guess.

I think the issue of cases in double jabs people is that the vaccines are most effective at reducing serious disease and perhaps disease at all, so someone may have mild symptoms or even be symptomatic having been vaccinated while they would have had more severe disease had they not been vaccinated. This seems to be greater for the delta variant. Add to that the amount of testing going on and it is perhaps not surprising that we are seeing a fair amount of cases in vaccinated people.

Roses

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4447 on: July 26, 2021, 12:21:34 PM »
There is talk of providing the vaccine in tablet or inhaler form, which might encourage people who are scared of needles to take it, as well as being much more easy to store.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4448 on: July 26, 2021, 08:11:28 PM »
Fortunately it seems that case numbers are now starting to fall, but whether this will continue when the impact of 'Freedom day' changes kick in probably in a week's time is anyone's guess.

I think the issue of cases in double jabs people is that the vaccines are most effective at reducing serious disease and perhaps disease at all, so someone may have mild symptoms or even be symptomatic having been vaccinated while they would have had more severe disease had they not been vaccinated. This seems to be greater for the delta variant. Add to that the amount of testing going on and it is perhaps not surprising that we are seeing a fair amount of cases in vaccinated people.
It's a week since "freedom day" (I really hate that term). I think the effect should be kicking in about now given that the incubation period is about a week.

I'm more concerned that this sudden drop in cases might be an artefact of the testing process, or worse, a sign of deliberate manipulation.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4449 on: July 26, 2021, 09:01:07 PM »
It's a week since "freedom day" (I really hate that term). I think the effect should be kicking in about now given that the incubation period is about a week.
I think it has taken more than a week for effects to kick in, not least because we've only just been through the first weekend since the changes last Monday.

I think the next seven days will be key to seeing whether there has been any major effect.