Coronavirus

[ProfessorDavey]

Sorry - I should have clarified this. People have "natural antibodies", antibodies that are not developed in response to Covid-19, which consist of IgM, IgG and I think IgA. These are not specific for particular viruses, but can bind to and eliminate them. People also have Natural Killer cells, a class of lymphocyte that destroys infected cells. These are the mechanisms by which people recover from infection within a week or two, before covid-soecific antibodies develop.

Spud - I think you need to do a crash course in immunology.

IgG, IgM, IgA etc are so-called isotypes (or classes) of antibody. All are specific, in that they have an antigen binding site that will recognise a particular antigen on a foreign body, e.g. a virus protein. They are all specific for particular viruses, or rather a protein component on a virus. The exception being if the same protein is found on more than one virus in which case antibodies raised to virus A may protect from virus B.

So on the case of covid, the immune response involves the generation of specific antibodies, of all of the above classes, to various covid virus proteins. Without that acquired immune response our ability to fight infection is very weak, just associated with the innate immune system. The latter does involve natural killer cells, but their ability to respond to infection is limited without the acquired immune system.

And contrary to your post the acquired immune system (even in a first infection) will be kicking out Covid-specific antibodies within days, so your person who recovers from COVID in a week or two will be using the acquired immune system as the key component to fight that infection.

[Spud]

Spud - I think you need to do a crash course in immunology.

IgG, IgM, IgA etc are so-called isotypes (or classes) of antibody. All are specific, in that they have an antigen binding site that will recognise a particular antigen on a foreign body, e.g. a virus protein. They are all specific for particular viruses, or rather a protein component on a virus. The exception being if the same protein is found on more than one virus in which case antibodies raised to virus A may protect from virus B.

So on the case of covid, the immune response involves the generation of specific antibodies, of all of the above classes, to various covid virus proteins. Without that acquired immune response our ability to fight infection is very weak, just associated with the innate immune system. The latter does involve natural killer cells, but their ability to respond to infection is limited without the acquired immune system.

And contrary to your post the acquired immune system (even in a first infection) will be kicking out Covid-specific antibodies within days, so your person who recovers from COVID in a week or two will be using the acquired immune system as the key component to fight that infection.

There are certain nonspecific natural antibodies that we are born with, which are said to be our first line of defense. You may or may not be right that they are not sufficient to deal with infection, and that acquired antibodies are made in sufficient numbers to become the key component to fight a first infection within days.
You may like to respond to the point made at 19:45-20:05 of this video
It's still the case that most young people can fight the infection without vaccinal antibodies.
He also says further on that the innate immune system could become useless when ineffective vaccinal antibodies are recalled in response to infection with a future variant, and block the innate mechanisms.
Earlier in the video he reminds us of the "first do no harm" principle. So if there is even a slight risk of side effects from vaccination, that principle is not being followed.

[Gordon]

There are certain nonspecific natural antibodies that we are born with, which are said to be our first line of defense. You may or may not be right that they are not sufficient to deal with infection, and that acquired antibodies are made in sufficient numbers to become the key component to fight a first infection within days.
You may like to respond to the point made at 19:45-20:05 of this video
It's still the case that most young people can fight the infection without vaccinal antibodies.
He also says further on that the innate immune system could become useless when ineffective vaccinal antibodies are recalled in response to infection with a future variant, and block the innate mechanisms.
Earlier in the video he reminds us of the "first do no harm" principle. So if there is even a slight risk of side effects from vaccination, that principle is not being followed.

Citing Youtube videos is all very well, Spud, but it seems foolish to take them as gospel.

Geert Vanden Bossche has recently published a letter in which he argues that the vaccination campaign against COVID-19 is going to precipitate a public health disaster because the vaccines will select for viral variants that can escape their protection and drive them towards higher virulence. His claims are speculative, he offers no evidence to support his arguments, and makes several comments which are blatantly incorrect.

https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vanden-bossches-claims

This guy may produce Youtube videos but is seems he's never published anything in peer-reviewed journals despite claiming to have invented a vaccine.

Never published any research about vaccines, even though he supposedly invented a new type of universal vaccines based on NK cells…

Should we stop vaccinating people in the middle of a pandemic that has already killed over 500,000 people in the United States alone on the word of someone who is board certified in Veterinary Virology, Microbiology and Animal Hygiene and hasn’t published a research paper since 1995?

Background

[Spud]

This has been known for some time, as has the fact that you are less likely to pass the virus on and the length of time you stay infectious is shorter. As with all vaccines they are not 100% effective. Also if you are double vaccinated you are three times less likely to become infected.

Report here: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/227713/coronavirus-infections-three-times-lower-double/

This study was done in the context of people in their homes. The one I linked to was among people who had taken part in festivities, so it's more relevant to the use of vaccine passports.

The more people who are vaccinated the safer we all are. A fact that the immunologist in your link, Manuel Santos Rosa, acknowledges as he is pushing for vaccination of children. (Report here: https://www.portugalresident.com/portuguese-immunologist-says-it-is-more-and-more-important-that-children-and-young-people-are-vaccinated/ )

He said that back in June.

[ProfessorDavey]

He said that back in June.

So what. It was true then and it is true now.

[ProfessorDavey]

Earlier in the video he reminds us of the "first do no harm" principle. So if there is even a slight risk of side effects from vaccination, that principle is not being followed.

Do no harm - correctly in medical ethics described as non-maleficence, is just one of the four key pillars of medical ethics, the others being beneficence, autonomy and justice. They need to be balanced and certainly non-maleficence is not the primary driver for a decision whether or not to authorise a treatment for use.

Spud - don't forget that all medical treatment will have some level of risk, or side effects. So if you will only authorise treatments with no side effects you'd never allow any treatment. The issue isn't whether there are side effects, but whether the benefit of the treatment outweighs the risks. In the case of the covid vaccine clinical trials have determined that the benefits do outweigh the risks even for children as young as 12 for the Pfizer vaccine.

[Aruntraveller]

This study was done in the context of people in their homes.

I can't see how you came to that conclusion based on the report I linked to. It absolutely did not specify any context other than it was a sample of 100,000 people between 24the June and 12th July.

Those people might have been mixing or might not have been. they may have been at home or work or in other places.

I don't understand your need to so obviously misrepresent facts.

[Spud]

So what. It was true then and it is true now.

Yes - I got mixed up. He changed his opinion on passports as a result of the study, not child vaccinatiin.

[Spud]

I can't see how you came to that conclusion based on the report I linked to. It absolutely did not specify any context other than it was a sample of 100,000 people between 24the June and 12th July.

Those people might have been mixing or might not have been. they may have been at home or work or in other places.

I don't understand your need to so obviously misrepresent facts.

The number that tested positive was iirc similar to that in the festivities study. It seems when one study comes to a conclusion, another concludes the opposite. Which do we believe? The one that supports our view?

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes - I got mixed up. He changed his opinion on passports as a result of the study, not child vaccinatiin.

Have you spent a bit of time trying to learn the basics of our immune system and immune response Spud. I think you need to.

[Udayana]

There are certain nonspecific natural antibodies that we are born with, which are said to be our first line of defense. You may or may not be right that they are not sufficient to deal with infection, and that acquired antibodies are made in sufficient numbers to become the key component to fight a first infection within days.
You may like to respond to the point made at 19:45-20:05 of this video
It's still the case that most young people can fight the infection without vaccinal antibodies.
He also says further on that the innate immune system could become useless when ineffective vaccinal antibodies are recalled in response to infection with a future variant, and block the innate mechanisms.
Earlier in the video he reminds us of the "first do no harm" principle. So if there is even a slight risk of side effects from vaccination, that principle is not being followed.

Why spend your time reading or watching garbage when there is plenty of actual knowledge readily available to study, learn from and work with?

[Nearly Sane]

Anti Vaxxers storn not BBC HQ

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/television-centre-protest-anti-vaxxers-clash-with-police-and-try-to-storm-former-bbc-studios-in-london/ar-AAN7izC

[SteveH]

There is, alas, no vaccine aginst stupidity.

[jeremyp]

There is, alas, no vaccine aginst stupidity.

Yes there is. It's called education. Unfortunately, it's not 100% effective.

[Spud]

Have you spent a bit of time trying to learn the basics of our immune system and immune response Spud. I think you need to.

Heck, yes. About 28 years ago, but I don't remember covering natural antibodies. Thanks for correcting me on the time it takes for specific antibodies to be made.

[Nearly Sane]

Stevie Nicks cancels US concerts for rest of year because of number of daily  Covid cases in the US

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58169510

[Spud]

The problem with researching the extent to which natural antibodies are involved in recovery from Covid 19 is that Google thinks you mean antibodies acquired through natural infection. However, if you type in 'what are natural antibodies?' you get quite a good result.
The Wiki entry on Antibody states, "Humans and higher primates also produce "natural antibodies" that are present in serum before viral infection. Natural antibodies have been defined as antibodies that are produced without any previous infection, vaccination, other foreign antigen exposure or passive immunization. These antibodies can activate the classical complement pathway leading to lysis of enveloped virus particles long before the adaptive immune response is activated." (my bold).

[Nearly Sane]

I have a strange sense of deja vu



https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58179312

[Spud]

Without that acquired immune response our ability to fight infection is very weak, just associated with the innate immune system.

Could it be said that the innate immune system's ability to fight infection is actually quite good, especially in younger people, but is reduced with increasing viral load? This would agree with the low number of children infected during the first wave, but higher numbers during second and third waves involving more infectious variants.

[Dicky Underpants]

And to think I used to like that right-wing dickhead when he presented 'Coast'!

Me too. Quite extraordinary that he thinks that it's okay if he should infect someone else as a result of not wearing a mask, on the grounds that 'life's tough'. Such views exactly mirror those of Bolsonaro in Brazil, and just about every dictator and proto-dictator in the world at the moment. It really is quite sickening that he bleats on about taking his stand on the grounds of "freedom",  comparing the advice of the vast number of medical experts (loosely enforced by our bumbling government) to the evils of the Nazis in WW2. In Norfolk they would say "Thass all arse about face".
Significantly, in Camus' novel about a plague epidemic 'La Peste', he used the disease allegorically to represent the ever present danger of fascism in society.

Neil Oliver's archaeological researches probably led him to conclude that human life is "nasty, brutish and short", and that is the way things should be. So much for modern medicine and vaccination in general. Long live smallpox. Did I hear Jenner turning in his grave?

[SteveH]

Some twat on the book of faces recently compared me to a Nazi because I argued in favour if vaccine passports.

[Aruntraveller]

Don't worry, express any half way sensible sentiment on any subject and you are likely to be accused of being a Nazi.

I found this which is connected to Covid. It is a fun bit of graphics to show recovery rates of various cities:

 https://www.centreforcities.org/data/high-streets-recovery-tracker/?

[SteveH]

If vaccination had been named after its inventor, it'd be called "jenneration", and when you went for your second jab, you'd be going for "the next jenneration".

[Nearly Sane]

Some twat on the book of faces recently compared me to a Nazi because I argued in favour if vaccine passports.

There will be someone on social media who will compare to Nazi for arguing in favour of OAP bus passes

[Aruntraveller]

Good article about the virus and the evolutionary change it undergoes:

https://theconversation.com/sars-cov-2-mutations-why-the-virus-might-still-have-some-tricks-to-pull-165766?