Coronavirus

[Harrowby Hall]

Matt Hancock seems to think there is. Are you better informed than he is?
He's not blaming people for the shortage. He's just pointing out a fact: if you use more of a resource in short supply, it is a bad thing.

It saves lives to stop people from using more PPE than they need.

It saves lives to ensure that every patient is greeted by a nurse or doctor wearing a fresh pair of gloves, a fresh gown and a fresh mask.

Conservatism is a political philosophy which knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

[Walter]

HH

proud to be smug !

[wigginhall]

Not really making a point here but total deaths in England and Wales.

03-Jan-20   10-Jan-20   17-Jan-20   24-Jan-20   31-Jan-20   07-Feb-20   14-Feb-20   21-Feb-20   28-Feb-20   06-Mar-20   13-Mar-20   20-Mar-20   27-Mar-20
12,254   14,058   12,990   11,856   11,612   10,986   10,944   10,841   10,816   10,895   11,019   10,645   11,141

from ONS, https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales

Those statistics ignore exponential growth.  Without the lockdown, how many deaths?

[Enki]

From the BBC live feed - what an unmitigated prick, Hancock is!


'There have been cases where medical workers have used more personal protective equipment (PPE) than necessary, the UK health secretary has said, after a doctor's union warned that many doctors were not getting the equipment they need.

The British Medical Association said doctors faced "heart-breaking decisions" over whether to carry on without proper protection.

Matt Hancock told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that there was enough personal protective equipment to go around if it was used in line with guidance.

"I don't want to impugn blame on people who have used more PPE than the guidelines suggest because I understand the difficulties in the circumstances," he said.

"What I would say it is very important to use the right PPE and not overuse it."

The health secretary confirmed that 19 NHS workers had died since the start of the outbreak.

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer tweeted: "It is quite frankly insulting to imply front line staff are wasting PPE."

Dame Donna Kinnair, general secretary of the Royal College of Nursing, told Today that no piece of PPE could ever be "more precious a resource than a healthcare worker's life, a nurse's life, a doctor's life".'

I don't know whether Matt Hancock is right or not because I am not privy to any of the evidence or advice he has, but a couple of points to make here:

Firstly my wife, who was a nurse and then a phlebotamist in the NHS for many years, has continually criticised the NHS for its sheer wastage of equipment. Last year I had two operations for replacement hips(both successful) and I still have the crutches loaned to me by the NHS as well as the special toilet seat loaned to me as I was recovering. On enquiring at the hospital where these operations were done. I was told to get rid of the crutches and the toilet seat contraption as they didn't want them back!

Secondly, the logistics of ensuring that the many thousands of locations where all kinds of PPE are needed are continually and fully stocked is a huge problem. I don't doubt that mistakes have been made and reasonable criticism is, to my mind, quite acceptable. However it seems to me that any politician of any party would struggle under the problems that this pandemic has brought up.

[Roses]

The BBC medical drama Holby City has donated fully working ventilators from its set at Elstree to be used in London's new NHS Nightingale Hospital.

[Udayana]

Not really making a point here but total deaths in England and Wales.

03-Jan-20   10-Jan-20   17-Jan-20   24-Jan-20   31-Jan-20   07-Feb-20   14-Feb-20   21-Feb-20   28-Feb-20   06-Mar-20   13-Mar-20   20-Mar-20   27-Mar-20
12,254   14,058   12,990   11,856   11,612   10,986   10,944   10,841   10,816   10,895   11,019   10,645   11,141

from ONS, https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales

The important information on that page is in the notes, not the raw figures to Apr this year.

[Udayana]

I don't know whether Matt Hancock is right or not because I am not privy to any of the evidence or advice he has, but a couple of points to make here:

Firstly my wife, who was a nurse and then a phlebotamist in the NHS for many years, has continually criticised the NHS for its sheer wastage of equipment. Last year I had two operations for replacement hips(both successful) and I still have the crutches loaned to me by the NHS as well as the special toilet seat loaned to me as I was recovering. On enquiring at the hospital where these operations were done. I was told to get rid of the crutches and the toilet seat contraption as they didn't want them back!

No doubt wastage in the NHS has been and is a significant problem - which the regular management re-organisations, attempting to solve it, have only exacerbated. But, there does not seem to have been any indication or evidence that any staff have been wasting ppe in the current crisis or that the procedures would allow them too. 

Secondly, the logistics of ensuring that the many thousands of locations where all kinds of PPE are needed are continually and fully stocked is a huge problem. I don't doubt that mistakes have been made and reasonable criticism is, to my mind, quite acceptable. However it seems to me that any politician of any party would struggle under the problems that this pandemic has brought up.

Of course it is logistically difficult - but even more so when planning exercises to ensure that the NHS is prepared for epidemics are ignored - talk about waste! Germany does not seem to be struggling in the way we are.

   

[Udayana]

The BBC medical drama Holby City has donated fully working ventilators from its set at Elstree to be used in London's new NHS Nightingale Hospital.

Did you see this earlier?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/coronavirus-medical-fetish-site-gives-scrubs-nhs-hospital-a4402506.html

"A medical fetish site said it has donated its entire stock of disposable scrubs to an NHS hospital.

MedFet UK, which describes itself as "the only online store 100 per cent dedicated to Medical Fetish, Kink and Roleplay," said in a tweet that it had been contacted by the NHS, who were trying to find protective equipment and clothing."

[jeremyp]

It saves lives to ensure that every patient is greeted by a nurse or doctor wearing a fresh pair of gloves, a fresh gown and a fresh mask.

Did Matt Hancock suggest otherwise?

No.

He said don't waste the gear.

Conservatism is a political philosophy which knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

A lot of people seem to be seeing everything through the lens of their hatred of Conservatism.

[jeremyp]

Those statistics ignore exponential growth.  Without the lockdown, how many deaths?

That wasn't the point. He was presenting the figures to give some context as to what an extra 1,000 deaths per day means in the context of needing mortuaries (at least that's how I read it). In a normal year about 2,000 people die every day in the UK, so coronavirus is currently adding 50% more bodies to be dealt with. That's why we need temporary mortuaries.

[SusanDoris]

Did Matt Hancock suggest otherwise?

No.

He said don't waste the gear.
A lot of people seem to be seeing everything through the lens of their hatred of Conservatism.

Yes, that has been very noticeable. I'd like to know why they think others, or they themselves, would have done better. Yes, perhaps some things might have been, but maybe more would not. It's impossible to know, and hindsight is easy.

[Enki]

No doubt wastage in the NHS has been and is a significant problem - which the regular management re-organisations, attempting to solve it, have only exacerbated. But, there does not seem to have been any indication or evidence that any staff have been wasting ppe in the current crisis or that the procedures would allow them too. 

Of course it is logistically difficult - but even more so when planning exercises to ensure that the NHS is prepared for epidemics are ignored - talk about waste! Germany does not seem to be struggling in the way we are.

   

As regards your last point, fair enough but remember Germany banned any PPE exports on March 4th in order to make sure it had enough. Perhaps we should have done the same earlier. I accept that is a valid criticism.

However, remember that we are not the only country which has had problems.

https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/03-03-2020-shortage-of-personal-protective-equipment-endangering-health-workers-worldwide

[Nearly Sane]

As regards your last point, fair enough but remember Germany banned any PPE exports on March 4th in order to make sure it had enough. Perhaps we should have done the same earlier. I accept that is a valid criticism.

However, remember that we are not the only country which has had problems.

https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/03-03-2020-shortage-of-personal-protective-equipment-endangering-health-workers-worldwide

We also had a govt saying they had enough supplies when they were being told by front line staff that they didn't. They were either incompetent, lying, or both

[Nearly Sane]

Fresh Guinness delivered to your door

https://www.irishpost.com/news/belfast-pub-delivering-pints-freshly-poured-guinness-door-door-lockdown-183328?fbclid=IwAR0dMgiZbfMUPZXWRfoV_KD2e9ThT51UnqHMc2Ydt9FS8jP4CROL_irGVL8

[Walter]

Did Matt Hancock suggest otherwise?

No.

He said don't waste the gear.
A lot of people seem to be seeing everything through the lens of their hatred of Conservatism.

I totally agree with you jezza .
that could be a first ?

[Udayana]

...
A lot of people seem to be seeing everything through the lens of their hatred of Conservatism.

A criticism is either valid or not, don't see why political outlook would matter. In fact there is an underlying tendency for people to want to believe that their government is trustworthy and to have confidence in it. If there is hatred, why assume it is the reason for criticism, rather than  resulting from observation of previous performance?   

I agree with this chap (who does admit to being a lefty):
https://medium.com/@timpetherick/uk-covid-19-lockdown-day-17-the-british-media-portray-european-deaths-as-apocalyptic-and-british-4655bc8d50be

If anything, the media spin is to try and make the government look half-competent - switching focus onto Boris' recovery or feel-good activities during lockdown stories.
 

[wigginhall]

Yes, 1000 deaths in Italy, is a tsunami, 1000 in UK, but Boris getting better!

[Nearly Sane]

I totally agree with you jezza .
that could be a first ?

Of course the BMA and Royal College of Nurses are just whinging. Nice to see you support the man whose incompetence and lying have put your daughter at risk.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8208991/Health-Secretary-Matt-Hancock-tells-medics-use-PPE-patients.html

[Walter]

Of course the BMA and Royal College of Nurses are just whinging. Nice to see you support the man whose incompetence and lying have put your daughter at risk.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8208991/Health-Secretary-Matt-Hancock-tells-medics-use-PPE-patients.html

actually it's my daughter -in -law to be accurate, saney

wasting and abusing equipment in the NHS is endemic,  it has become 'normal practice' , I hope you have never been in hospital long enough to witness it .

[jakswan]

That wasn't the point. He was presenting the figures to give some context as to what an extra 1,000 deaths per day means in the context of needing mortuaries (at least that's how I read it). In a normal year about 2,000 people die every day in the UK, so coronavirus is currently adding 50% more bodies to be dealt with. That's why we need temporary mortuaries.

Yes that was the context.

It might not mean an extra 1,000 deaths per day, e.g. under 44 deaths are potentially going to be lower than normal perhaps?

[Nearly Sane]

actually it's my daughter -in -law to be accurate, saney

wasting and abusing equipment in the NHS is endemic,  it has become 'normal practice' , I hope you have never been in hospital long enough to witness it .

And  you think that explains the lack of PPE? Because obviously you trust Hancock rather than front line workers.

[Walter]

actually it's my daughter -in -law to be accurate, saney

wasting and abusing equipment in the NHS is endemic,  it has become 'normal practice' , I hope you have never been in hospital long enough to witness it .

and saney if you don't agree i don't really care , this is all i have to say

https://youtu.be/mEhkM3X_teQ

😘😘😘

[Walter]

And  you think that explains the lack of PPE? Because obviously you trust Hancock rather than front line workers.

do you spend hours in bed unable to sleep every night trying to eliminate the 'six degrees of separation' ?

[Walter]

btw

good old Les was a delight at one of our family weddings , such a lovely unassuming bloke

[Nearly Sane]

and saney if you don't agree i don't really care , this is all i have to say

https://youtu.be/mEhkM3X_teQ

😘😘😘

Of their's I prefer this which I think should be the Scottish national anthem

https://youtu.be/ytii7-bUxuk