Coronavirus

[Nearly Sane]

When the lock down is eventually eased it should be businesses that are important, which are opened first, the leisure industry can wait, imo. A second round of Covid-19 could be even worse than the first, which is bad enough.

Would you support the Govt continuing to pay 80% of the wages for all leisure industry workers currently being supported by the furlough scheme until they are allowed to open?

[Aruntraveller]

Businesses that are important are already open. Pubs are important morale-boosters.

Surprisingly I am not missing pubs at all. I am however missing my Monday Coffee Morning with a group of mainly older gays where we put the world to rights. So add coffee shops to the important morale-boosters list.

[jeremyp]

When the lock down is eventually eased it should be businesses that are important, which are opened first, the leisure industry can wait, imo. A second round of Covid-19 could be even worse than the first, which is bad enough.

The leisure industry is important.

[jeremyp]

Pubs are one of the least important places, which should be opened anytime soon, people drink far too much, imo.

Pubs won't be among the businesses that open first because it's hard to social distance in a pub. In fact, the purpose of a pub is the opposite of social distancing.

However, the thing I really want to do now more than anything else in the world is sit in a pub and have a beer with my brother. I vote for them being reopened as soon as it is safe-ish to do so.

[Roses]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-52395771

Threats of murder have been made to some 5G engineers. You have to be mentally deranged if you believe these masts are causing Covid-19! 

[SusanDoris]

The leisure industry is important.

It most certainly is. It keeps me out of the doctor's surgery,  and gives me a routine of something I can organise and do independently.

[ad_orientem]

Pubs won't be among the businesses that open first because it's hard to social distance in a pub. In fact, the purpose of a pub is the opposite of social distancing.

However, the thing I really want to do now more than anything else in the world is sit in a pub and have a beer with my brother. I vote for them being reopened as soon as it is safe-ish to do so.

Indeed. I miss the pub but it has to be safe. So there has to be some restrictions. Maybe restricted openning hours can that, I don't know.

[ad_orientem]

Our head of our health and welfare institute said today that a majority of the population need to get the virus so that we can be safe. This was just his opinion and not government policy but I just can't agree with that opinion. It puts all the burden on the risk groups to self isolate. Totally cut off from normal society. Exit strategies have to include risk groups.

[torridon]

Our head of our health and welfare institute said today that a majority of the population need to get the virus so that we can be safe. This was just his opinion and not government policy but I just can't agree with that opinion. It puts all the burden on the risk groups to self isolate. Totally cut off from normal society. Exit strategies have to include risk groups.

That was UK policy briefly, herd immunity.  We had to drop it when data from Italy revealed a hospitalisation rate that would have overwhelmed the health service.  Add to that, the fact that the more the virus spreads, the more opportunities it has to mutate, and that risks new strains emerging that could be more infectious, or more lethal, or both. High risk strategy.

[jeremyp]

That was UK policy briefly, herd immunity.  We had to drop it when data from Italy revealed a hospitalisation rate that would have overwhelmed the health service.  Add to that, the fact that the more the virus spreads, the more opportunities it has to mutate, and that risks new strains emerging that could be more infectious, or more lethal, or both. High risk strategy.

It still is UK policy. If you want the virus to go away, herd immunity will be the only way to stop it given how infectious it is.

[Aruntraveller]

It still is UK policy. If you want the virus to go away, herd immunity will be the only way to stop it given how infectious it is.

Except of course that as yet, they are not sure that infection confers immunity. And as has been pointed out before herd immunity is fine when arrived at by vaccine, not so easily done by way of hundreds of thousands of deaths.

[ad_orientem]

That was UK policy briefly, herd immunity.  We had to drop it when data from Italy revealed a hospitalisation rate that would have overwhelmed the health service.  Add to that, the fact that the more the virus spreads, the more opportunities it has to mutate, and that risks new strains emerging that could be more infectious, or more lethal, or both. High risk strategy.

Indeed. Very risky. Sweden is a good example.

[ad_orientem]

It still is UK policy. If you want the virus to go away, herd immunity will be the only way to stop it given how infectious it is.

Vaccine!

[Nearly Sane]

Vaccine!

If we aren't sure that having had the virus confers immunity, then that undermined a working vaccine, and will extend any testing.

[jeremyp]

Except of course that as yet, they are not sure that infection confers immunity. And as has been pointed out before herd immunity is fine when arrived at by vaccine, not so easily done by way of hundreds of thousands of deaths.

A vaccine is many months away and is, of course, also a form of herd immunity in itself. The lockdown strategy is all about slowing the rate of infection to levels manageable by the NHS. Don’t fool yourself into thinking it’s about anything more than containment until we can achieve herd immunity or find some other effective treatment.

[jeremyp]

Vaccine!

That’s herd immunity but at lower risk than catching the disease.

[Spud]

Indeed. Very risky. Sweden is a good example.

I saw this morning that they have a population of 10 million, and 2,000 deaths from coronavirus. That is lower than the proportion of deaths in England relative to its population. Also, the daily death toll has been diminishing from about 100 to about 20 over the last 2 weeks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Sweden

So, risky, yes, but they expect to reach herd immunity within weeks.

[Aruntraveller]

A vaccine is many months away and is, of course, also a form of herd immunity in itself. The lockdown strategy is all about slowing the rate of infection to levels manageable by the NHS. Don’t fool yourself into thinking it’s about anything more than containment until we can achieve herd immunity or find some other effective treatment.

I'm not fooling myself. I just don't see an easy way out currently.

I have heard much talk about shielding the vulnerable lately, which as far as I can see is anyone over 60 or with a condition that makes them more likely to be seriously ill (or die) from the virus.

Even if that is possible and long term it sounds really difficult to sustain, the health service is still going to be at full stretch if the rest of the population is let out of lockdown in some way. The virus really is not that predictable and we would still be suffering huge numbers ill and dying in the lower age groups, with the strain that will put on the NHS - not to mention the add on deaths from the postponement of cancer treatments and all the other diseases we also need to be focusing on.

Having read all that, I think what I am trying to say is that unless we get a vaccine or efficient treatment of the symptoms by medication then we are fucked.

[ad_orientem]

I saw this morning that they have a population of 10 million, and 2,000 deaths from coronavirus. That is lower than the proportion of deaths in England relative to its population. Also, the daily death toll has been diminishing from about 100 to about 20 over the last 2 weeks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavirus_pandemic_in_Sweden

So, risky, yes, but they expect to reach herd immunity within weeks.

The deaths seem to go in waves. Today was about 80 deaths, I think, but the day before that was about 170 and the day before that about 180. Deaths per million are 200, that's somwhere between that of the USA and the UK. Compared to the other Nordic countries that's about 3 times as much as Denmark and about 6-7 times as much as Norway or Finland. So not good.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

[Spud]

The deaths deem to go in waves. Today was about 80 deaths, I think, but the day before that was about 170 and the day before that about 180. Deaths per million are 200, that's somwhere between that of the USA and the UK. Compared to the other Nordic countries that's about 3 times as much as Denmark and about 6-7 times as much as Norway or Finland. So not good.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Strange - the table on the wiki page shows 18 new deaths today. Still, whether lockdown is or isn't slowing the infection and mortality rate, it is certainly having a huge effect on pollution in cities.

[SteveH]

The leisure industry is important.

Yes, it is, but not in the short term. Schools are even more important, but they've closed temporarily.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, it is, but not in the short term. Schools are even more important, but they've closed temporarily.

Which is a false dichotomy. At no point did jp make a comparison with schools, or suggest they are not important.

[SteveH]

Which is a false dichotomy. At no point did jp make a comparison with schools, or suggest they are not important.

It isn't a dichotomy at all, and I didn't suggest that JP did make that comparison. I made it, to point out that something can be important in the medium-to-long term, but less so in the short term. Stop picking arguments for the sake of it.

[Nearly Sane]

It isn't a dichotomy at all, and I didn't suggest that JP did make that comparison. I made it, to point out that something can be important in the medium-to-long term, but less so in the short term. Stop picking arguments for the sake of it.

You presented it as a dichotomy. If you don't want to be picked up on that you need to write better and clearer. Stop attributing motivation to others because you are not able to express yourself clearly.

[SteveH]

You presented it as a dichotomy. If you don't want to be picked up on that you need to write better and clearer. Stop attributing motivation to others because you are not able to express yourself clearly.

Do you even know what "dichotomy" means? It means a contrast between two things which are different. I was comparing two things which are, in the relevant respect, the same.