Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 248284 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1850 on: May 11, 2020, 12:26:44 PM »
I suppose those people who have had relatives who have died because of govt incompetence and lies should just shut up then.

Do you know anybody whose deaths in this crisis were definitely caused by government incompetence? Am I allowed to point to my nearly 80 year old parents and say "look their lives have been saved by government competence"?

We don't know if any lives could have been saved by doing some things differently. It seems likely that going into lockdown a few weeks earlier might have saved some lives but we don't know that.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here and elsewhere for whom the government can do no right. If the government came up with a wider cure tomorrow, people would be whining about how they failed to come up with it yesterday or criticising them because they can't administer it to 66 million people all on the dame day.

The is the worst health crisis that anybody alive today has ever lived through. It's the worst crisis of any sort since WW2 and the people running WW2 mostly remembered WW1. Of course the government is making mistakes. They are having to make up the response as they are going along.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1851 on: May 11, 2020, 12:28:36 PM »
Meanwhile we have Raab muddying the already murky waters.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/11/dominic-raab-adds-confusion-over-changes-uk-lockdown-rules?

Wednesday? Monday?
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1852 on: May 11, 2020, 12:30:42 PM »
Quote
We don't know if any lives could have been saved by doing some things differently. It seems likely that going into lockdown a few weeks earlier might have saved some lives but we don't know that.

We certainly know that stocks of PPE were cut and the remaining stocks were not replenished. Health staff died.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1853 on: May 11, 2020, 01:02:03 PM »
He said he would take questions tonight. So, no it wasn't an issue.
  Except as already covered Raab has been out this morning saying that the return plan was for Wednesday, not today. So it was an issue.

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1854 on: May 11, 2020, 01:40:06 PM »
  Except as already covered Raab has been out this morning saying that the return plan was for Wednesday, not today. So it was an issue.

That's quite strange because I never thought it was Monday.

And so what? In practical terms it couldn't be today anyway.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1855 on: May 11, 2020, 01:52:37 PM »
OK I figured out where I got the Wednesday impression from. Wednesday was explicitly mentioned in respect of the changes to exercise. However, it should be obvious that most workplaces were not going to be able to change their practices by the day after the prime minister's speech at 7pm to allow people to come back in to work.

And for those claiming the speech was a bit vague, Boris pretty much acknowledged that in the speech.

Quote
I will be setting out more details in Parliament tomorrow and taking questions from the public in the evening.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-address-to-the-nation-on-coronavirus-10-may-2020

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1856 on: May 11, 2020, 01:55:34 PM »
OK I figured out where I got the Wednesday impression from. Wednesday was explicitly mentioned in respect of the changes to exercise. However, it should be obvious that most workplaces were not going to be able to change their practices by the day after the prime minister's speech at 7pm to allow people to come back in to work.

And for those claiming the speech was a bit vague, Boris pretty much acknowledged that in the speech.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-address-to-the-nation-on-coronavirus-10-may-2020
Which just underlines why it shouldn't have been made without the ability to question, or indeed without those details being available

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1857 on: May 11, 2020, 01:57:50 PM »
That's quite strange because I never thought it was Monday.

And so what? In practical terms it couldn't be today anyway.
Because lots of people took it as applying today and the use of public transport has increased with the requisite increase in capacity. It also needed to have the plans for furlough clear as part of an integrated solution.

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1858 on: May 11, 2020, 02:05:31 PM »
Which just underlines why it shouldn't have been made without the ability to question, or indeed without those details being available
It wasn't made without the ability to question. Johnson will be taking questions today. And he will be giving the details today. We've been living in a lockdown since March 23rd. Why is one day suddenly a problem?
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1859 on: May 11, 2020, 02:13:48 PM »
Because lots of people took it as applying today
Use some common sense. Would you travel to your place of work today without checking with your employer first that it is even going to be open?

Quote
and the use of public transport has increased with the requisite increase in capacity.
The speech explicitly said avoid public transport for that exact reason.


Quote
It also needed to have the plans for furlough clear as part of an integrated solution.
The plans for furlough are clear. It ends on June 30th. I see newspapers are reporting that the government is considering extending it in some modified form (perhaps at 60%) but is it unreasonable for the government to think about modifying it?

« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 04:19:08 PM by jeremyp »
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SusanDoris

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1860 on: May 11, 2020, 02:49:11 PM »
Do you know anybody whose deaths in this crisis were definitely caused by government incompetence? Am I allowed to point to my nearly 80 year old parents and say "look their lives have been saved by government competence"?

We don't know if any lives could have been saved by doing some things differently. It seems likely that going into lockdown a few weeks earlier might have saved some lives but we don't know that.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here and elsewhere for whom the government can do no right. If the government came up with a wider cure tomorrow, people would be whining about how they failed to come up with it yesterday or criticising them because they can't administer it to 66 million people all on the dame day.

The is the worst health crisis that anybody alive today has ever lived through. It's the worst crisis of any sort since WW2 and the people running WW2 mostly remembered WW1. Of course the government is making mistakes. They are having to make up the response as they are going along.
Hear, hear. Very well said.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1861 on: May 11, 2020, 03:57:43 PM »
The government has published its document on the next steps



« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 04:18:13 PM by jeremyp »
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ad_orientem

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1862 on: May 11, 2020, 04:01:31 PM »
Do you know anybody whose deaths in this crisis were definitely caused by government incompetence? Am I allowed to point to my nearly 80 year old parents and say "look their lives have been saved by government competence"?

We don't know if any lives could have been saved by doing some things differently. It seems likely that going into lockdown a few weeks earlier might have saved some lives but we don't know that.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here and elsewhere for whom the government can do no right. If the government came up with a wider cure tomorrow, people would be whining about how they failed to come up with it yesterday or criticising them because they can't administer it to 66 million people all on the dame day.

The is the worst health crisis that anybody alive today has ever lived through. It's the worst crisis of any sort since WW2 and the people running WW2 mostly remembered WW1. Of course the government is making mistakes. They are having to make up the response as they are going along.

More or less agree with that. Not a country in the world that hasn't made mistakes on the way, and in the end only hindsight will tell how bad those mistakes were. Given that this is new, any country can only go on the information it has at the time. Of course it can still be given good and bad advice. Personally, if I had the power to choose, I would want to suffocate the virus (exit strategies have to include risk groups too, the only ethical way in my opinion) but only time will tell if that or hybrid strategies will work. Nearly all countries have fucked up with PPC, including my own.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 04:13:14 PM by ad_orientem »
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Roses

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1863 on: May 11, 2020, 05:23:22 PM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52618352

Jury trials are to resume next week in England and Wales.
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SteveH

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1864 on: May 11, 2020, 10:26:28 PM »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52618352

Jury trials are to resume next week in England and Wales.
Put BloJob in the dock, for criminal negligence!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1865 on: May 11, 2020, 10:28:21 PM »
Put BloJob in the dock, for criminal negligence!
much as I think he is a dangerous lazy incompetent, that's nonsense.

SteveH

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1866 on: May 11, 2020, 10:29:41 PM »
much as I think he is a dangerous lazy incompetent, that's nonsense.
Ic wasn't being serious!
I once tried using "chicken" as a password, but was told it must contain a capital so I tried "chickenkiev"
On another occasion, I tried "beefstew", but was told it wasn't stroganoff.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1867 on: May 11, 2020, 10:37:07 PM »
Ic wasn't being serious!
The issue is that there are enough people who argue nonsense like this for it to be no joke.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1868 on: May 11, 2020, 11:29:26 PM »
It wasn't made without the ability to question. Johnson will be taking questions today. And he will be giving the details today. We've been living in a lockdown since March 23rd. Why is one day suddenly a problem?
Because lots more people travelled on public transport in London today because of the inability and incompetence to communicate that it didn't mean tomorrow with no qualification, something you have already made clear on here you didn't understand.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1869 on: May 11, 2020, 11:45:46 PM »
Use some common sense. Would you travel to your place of work today without checking with your employer first that it is even going to be open?
The speech explicitly said avoid public transport for that exact reason.


When and how do you check after the PM makes an announcement at 7pm on a Sunday, an announcement that you have already admitted you made an assumption about because it wasn't clearly explained. And yes it does say avoid public transport but that is just even more confusing for those who can't and who don't know if the public transport can deal with the demand, and where the govt has had no agreement with public transport that it can cover it.


Your posts where you declare your confusion illustrate why you are wrong.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2020, 11:52:10 PM by Nearly Sane »

Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1870 on: May 12, 2020, 08:50:23 AM »
...
It seems to me that there are a lot of people here and elsewhere for whom the government can do no right. If the government came up with a wider cure tomorrow, people would be whining about how they failed to come up with it yesterday or criticising them because they can't administer it to 66 million people all on the dame day.

The is the worst health crisis that anybody alive today has ever lived through. It's the worst crisis of any sort since WW2 and the people running WW2 mostly remembered WW1. Of course the government is making mistakes. They are having to make up the response as they are going along.

My impression is that people, here and elsewhere, including the opposition, have been bending over backwards to provide positive and constructive support for the govt. actions on the health crisis.

Not only is Covid-19 a new disease, there are huge gaps in our knowledge concerning it, and there is no cut and dried way of managing the crisis: we have, and will, make mistakes and need to correct them or change strategy or tactics.

The damning criticisms of the government have little directly to do with failures in tackling the pandemic but concern the unforced errors due to the dishonesty and incompetence in the administration itself and communications with anyone outside Downing St.
   
The crisis can't be stopped unless people can trust the government. The PM needs to reassure us, the critics, that he and his team can be trusted or put together a team that can be.
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wigginhall

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1871 on: May 12, 2020, 09:49:55 AM »
The gap in Boris's plan is contact tracing.  The govt has wavered between that, herd immunity, and lockdown.   Contact tracing is the best way to identify and isolate cases, but it is getting lost in the PR exercise.   Better make a will.
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Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1872 on: May 12, 2020, 10:28:16 AM »
The gap in Boris's plan is contact tracing.  The govt has wavered between that, herd immunity, and lockdown.   Contact tracing is the best way to identify and isolate cases, but it is getting lost in the PR exercise.   Better make a will.

Contact tracing could be put in place but it needs communication and cooperation with local government. There will be contact data from the NHSX app and there are thousands of volunteers who registered to help the NHS but have not been directed to any tasks so far. 

Ideally, anyone that may have been infected should be able to get an immediate test.
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wigginhall

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1873 on: May 12, 2020, 11:20:11 AM »
Contact tracing could be put in place but it needs communication and cooperation with local government. There will be contact data from the NHSX app and there are thousands of volunteers who registered to help the NHS but have not been directed to any tasks so far. 

Ideally, anyone that may have been infected should be able to get an immediate test.

Well, traditionally, contact tracing would be organized by local health inspectors, who dealt with infectious diseases, food poisoning, etc.  This make sense, as you have local outbreaks, which vary in intensity.  However, I suspect that local health organizations have been pissed against the wall in recent years.  Whether the new volunteers can be trained to do it, dunno.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1874 on: May 12, 2020, 02:53:32 PM »
Points to the govt for the extension in the furlough scheme. I fear though that we will see a lot of redundancies when it's over, and not just among those furloughed.