Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 248364 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1900 on: May 16, 2020, 12:50:23 PM »
A time line of the governments efforts:

https://appeasement.org/
When was the right time to introduce lockdown measures then?

And why "appeasement". Should we take seriously a web site that suggests the government is trying to appease a virus?

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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1901 on: May 16, 2020, 03:32:41 PM »
I've started trying to catch up on my More or Less backlog. I'm still listening to episodes from March but I've already heard some interesting stuff.

For example Professor David Spiegelhalter calculated the risk of dying from COVID19 once you get it and he found that the risk of death from COVID19 is almost exactly the same as the risk of death within the next year under more normal circumstances no matter what your age or health status.

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Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1902 on: May 16, 2020, 03:34:30 PM »
When was the right time to introduce lockdown measures then?
...

That is a really hard question as we don't know what the government knew or the advice they had during the build up.

In the end what tipped them was the report from Imperial College (Ferguson) published on 16th March - even then Johnson came over as halfheartedly supporting it - not properly supported by the govt until the 23rd.

The study is essentially based on a basic SIR epidemiological model - that would have given the same projections in mid to late Feb - with assumptions based on the data from China.  In addition data from Italy was available late Feb/early March.

Given that info and the knowledge that the testing capacity was running out and PPE stocks inadequate even for a flu epidemic - they could have locked down by Mar 10th or, preferably, introduced a series of restrictions maybe avoiding eventual full lockdown - something more  like Germany or maybe even Sweden.   

But I feel the fundamental problem we have here is not the exact date of the measures taken, but that the trust in government has been undermined. This was true even even before the crisis, due to 3 years of arguing over brexit.

One group (against the continuing of any lockdown) is trying, even now, to force the gov to publish the scientific evidence presented and advice it had from SAGE

I think if the government had been open, seen as trustworthy, and properly communicated with people, instead of trying to hide things, we would have acted sooner and could have emerged with a lot less spread/deaths and economic damage.
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Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1903 on: May 16, 2020, 03:40:02 PM »
I've started trying to catch up on my More or Less backlog. I'm still listening to episodes from March but I've already heard some interesting stuff.

For example Professor David Spiegelhalter calculated the risk of dying from COVID19 once you get it and he found that the risk of death from COVID19 is almost exactly the same as the risk of death within the next year under more normal circumstances no matter what your age or health status.

That was mentioned and discussed in this thread at the time.

It doesn't mean that we could or should ignore those deaths as (with current excess deaths running at an estimated 60k) many people who have died could have gone on to live for many fruitful years.
   
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SweetPea

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1904 on: May 16, 2020, 03:48:22 PM »
David Starkey's overall view on our Covid-19 situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S8Js-tEmlg

Quite harsh at times.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1905 on: May 16, 2020, 03:56:29 PM »
That is a really hard question as we don't know what the government knew or the advice they had during the build up.

In the end what tipped them was the report from Imperial College (Ferguson) published on 16th March - even then Johnson came over as halfheartedly supporting it - not properly supported by the govt until the 23rd.

The study is essentially based on a basic SIR epidemiological model - that would have given the same projections in mid to late Feb - with assumptions based on the data from China.  In addition data from Italy was available late Feb/early March.

Given that info and the knowledge that the testing capacity was running out and PPE stocks inadequate even for a flu epidemic - they could have locked down by Mar 10th or, preferably, introduced a series of restrictions maybe avoiding eventual full lockdown - something more  like Germany or maybe even Sweden.   

But I feel the fundamental problem we have here is not the exact date of the measures taken, but that the trust in government has been undermined. This was true even even before the crisis, due to 3 years of arguing over brexit.

I would argue that the government has actually done very little to undermine trust in it since the coronavirus thing started. I doubt if anybody's mind has been changed by its performance on coronavirus. They made their bed before this all started.

Quote
One group (against the continuing of any lockdown) is trying, even now, to force the gov to publish the scientific evidence presented and advice it had from SAGE

Which I agree they should do. Governments in this country seem to have some sort of aversion to publishing information for the public to see. It was almost comical in the Brexit negotiations where our government was trying to keep its position secret so as not to tip our hand to the enemy, whereas the EU was completely open about its position and they pasted us.

On the subject of Neil Ferguson's computer model, it is apparently worryingly badly implemented.

https://lockdownsceptics.org/code-review-of-fergusons-model/

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Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1906 on: May 16, 2020, 05:24:35 PM »
...
On the subject of Neil Ferguson's computer model, it is apparently worryingly badly implemented.

https://lockdownsceptics.org/code-review-of-fergusons-model/

It does sound terrible ... maybe I can find time to look at it later this summer.

There is also this review (of the report) from Taleb et al. perspective:

https://necsi.edu/review-of-ferguson-et-al-impact-of-non-pharmaceutical-interventions

« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 05:44:15 PM by Udayana »
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SteveH

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1907 on: May 16, 2020, 05:36:28 PM »
David Starkey's overall view on our Covid-19 situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S8Js-tEmlg

Quite harsh at times.
Long time no see, and all that, but who cares tuppence what a right-wing historian thinks about Covid-19, since he has no relevant expertise?
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1908 on: May 16, 2020, 05:46:25 PM »
It does sound terrible ... maybe I can find time to look at it later this summer.

There is also this review from Taleb et al. perspective:

https://necsi.edu/review-of-ferguson-et-al-impact-of-non-pharmaceutical-interventions

The paper I linked is bad. In a nutshell, if you run the model twice with the same inputs including using the same random number sequence, you will get different results. This non determinism is indicative of a serious bug. My money would be on heap corruption given it is written in C++.

Your paper is worse though because it points out serious flaws in the model which means that, even if they fix the bugs in the program, it’ll still give invalid results.
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Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1909 on: May 16, 2020, 06:08:55 PM »
The paper I linked is bad. In a nutshell, if you run the model twice with the same inputs including using the same random number sequence, you will get different results. This non determinism is indicative of a serious bug. My money would be on heap corruption given it is written in C++.

Your paper is worse though because it points out serious flaws in the model which means that, even if they fix the bugs in the program, it’ll still give invalid results.

Just using the basic SIR model, on paper without any computer simulations, and plugging in the estimated parameters from late Feb it is straightforward to calculate the 60% infection needed for herd immunity (if immunity is possible) and the likely 0.5m death figure assuming no intervention. *

Ferguson was going a lot further, trying to work out the effects of the different ways of intervening.

We don't really know what swung the decisions made as they were "following the scientific advice" before and after.

ETA: * Note. This is very crude and can't really model human epidemics in any detail as contact, therefore spread, is not fully random but networked.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 06:21:32 PM by Udayana »
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ad_orientem

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1910 on: May 16, 2020, 08:19:31 PM »
Long time no see, and all that, but who cares tuppence what a right-wing historian thinks about Covid-19, since he has no relevant expertise?

Indeed. Stopped lustening after about six minutes.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1913 on: May 17, 2020, 09:13:37 PM »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1914 on: May 17, 2020, 10:30:58 PM »
The whole Thursday clap stuff put into  petspective


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-52699962/coronavirus-belgian-hospital-staff-turn-backs-on-pm-sophie-wilms
Can you imagine the furore from festering rhinos tw**s like N. Ferrari and Ian Bunkum Shit if the NHS did that.

Roses

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1915 on: May 18, 2020, 11:46:22 AM »
A sudden loss of smell and taste can be symptoms of the virus.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1916 on: May 18, 2020, 12:03:41 PM »
A sudden loss of smell and taste can be symptoms of the virus.

This has been known for awhile now.

As the BBC reports:
Quote
Prof Nirmal Kumar from ENT UK, the body that represents ear, nose and throat doctors, said the change was "better late than never".
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1917 on: May 18, 2020, 12:04:45 PM »
A sudden loss of smell and taste can be symptoms of the virus.
It's really odd that something that was being openly talked about as a symptom by people with the virus 4 months ago took this long to be officially added

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1918 on: May 18, 2020, 12:10:39 PM »
It's really odd that something that was being openly talked about as a symptom by people with the virus 4 months ago took this long to be officially added
Anecdotes are not evidence. People have been talking about it for a long time but whether it is a reliable symptom of COVID19 or not needs to be investigated properly. That would take a while.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1919 on: May 18, 2020, 12:15:44 PM »
Anecdotes are not evidence. People have been talking about it for a long time but whether it is a reliable symptom of COVID19 or not needs to be investigated properly. That would take a while.
How long did the dry cough take to be identified as s symptom?

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1920 on: May 18, 2020, 12:26:46 PM »
How long did the dry cough take to be identified as s symptom?
No idea. I don't think we really know how long the virus was propagating in China and the authorities were aware of it before its characteristic symptoms were identified.
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ippy

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1921 on: May 18, 2020, 01:49:16 PM »
A sudden loss of smell and taste can be symptoms of the virus.

The taste solution bit could easily be resolved by not relying on the BBC and the Guardian as a source of news and no I'm not a right wing party supporter.

Regards LR, ippy.


Roses

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1922 on: May 18, 2020, 01:55:30 PM »
The taste solution bit could easily be resolved by not relying on the BBC and the Guardian as a source of news and no I'm not a right wing party supporter.

Regards LR, ippy.

I think the BBC is the best source of news, not perfect of course, but what is?
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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1923 on: May 18, 2020, 02:26:01 PM »
It does sound terrible ... maybe I can find time to look at it later this summer.

There is also this review (of the report) from Taleb et al. perspective:

https://necsi.edu/review-of-ferguson-et-al-impact-of-non-pharmaceutical-interventions

I was wondering what Taleb was saying currently, a striking sentence in the abstract, "the outbreak can be stopped completely with no resurgence".   This is through contact tracing, which the UK govt is struggling towards.   But I think large numbers preclude it, although possibly local testing works, not centralized.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #1924 on: May 18, 2020, 03:49:38 PM »
The taste solution bit could easily be resolved by not relying on the BBC and the Guardian as a source of news and no I'm not a right wing party supporter.

Regards LR, ippy.

Give it a rest.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.