Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 248625 times)

Roses

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2100 on: May 25, 2020, 06:37:33 PM »
I reckon Cummings will continue to be the centre of press attention until he does the decent thing and resigns.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2101 on: May 25, 2020, 06:45:05 PM »
I think it will be more about the public reaction and polling. If the approval rating dips significantly, then I think he will go. If it doesn't then he will survive.

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2102 on: May 25, 2020, 06:57:58 PM »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2103 on: May 25, 2020, 08:54:22 PM »
He went for a drive to check if he would be fit enough to do the longer drive back to London. He didn't say his eyesight was still affected at the time.
Yes he did:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52793960

ad_orientem

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2104 on: May 25, 2020, 09:07:14 PM »
Just read what that Cummings said in that press conference. Never heard so much bullshit in all my life.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2105 on: May 26, 2020, 01:08:41 AM »
Yes he did:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52793960
I thought he said his wife was concerned that his eyesight had been bad while he had been ill and she had no idea if it would affect his driving now so he drove for half an hour to check if he could see properly while he drove. I have no idea if he is telling the truth or not - I am not sure how else you would check if your vision was affected while driving without driving for a distance but it seems suspect that he went to a local beauty spot by accident. I think it was wrong that he and his wife and son would get out of the car and sit by the river during lockdown instead of going straight back to their cottage - he should have realised how bad that would look if the public became aware of it. 

I get that he has a 4 year old child and that during the 14 day isolation period people were permitted to go outside in their gardens, so I can understand why he went for walks in the nearby woods on his parents' private land with his wife and child. But after the 14 day isolation period, any outdoor 1 hour exercise was supposed to be close by, not a 30 minute drive away so I do not consider that as reasonable.

I can understand his reason for driving to his parents' farm - in this age of increased reports of sexual abuse of children I would not trust any old neighbour or friend with my 4 year old if my children were that young, especially if I thought there was a chance that both parents might be incapacitated for a long time or die. I would want my 4 year-old to be with close family such as a trusted sister and nieces on private land with big gates that could keep out Press intrusion.

The Government guidance said you can leave home to care for someone vulnerable during lockdown - and a 4 year old child is someone vulnerable that needs protection and if adequate protection was a 256 mile drive away, I would do the drive. I would put my 4 year old's interests ahead of the public's perceptions and I would not feel responsible for other people not obeying lock down rules because of their perception of my reasons for driving to protect my child. The Government guidelines require us to use our judgement when caring for vulnerable people so I would follow the guidelines by using my judgement and put the interests of the vulnerable person I had a parental duty to protect ahead of the public reaction to my decisions.

My husband and I left home during lockdown and drove to his mother's house every day to be with her as she all alone and was dying from vascular dementia, bed-ridden, sleeping for most of the day and night, unable to eat or drink and her primary carer had been suddenly admitted to hospital with pancreatitis.   

I am not buying the argument that Cummings should not have taken the option available to him to protect his son (away from Press intrusion if he or his wife were admitted to hospital or died) simply because there were single mothers in similar situations as him who did not have the option of driving to a cottage on private land to isolate near their sister and helpful nieces who would care for their vulnerable child if necessary.

And one of the other questions asked by a reporter at the Press conference was equally meaningless - the reporter said other children had been denied cancer treatment due to lockdown so why should the Cummings offspring merit any special treatment by being cared for when vulnerable. The Cummings child did not have cancer and receive treatment for it so not seeing the special treatment referred to in the question. If other parents had been prevented from driving long-distance to a trusted sibling. niece to care for a young child in case both parents succumbed to a potentially life-threatening illness, the reporter might have had a point.

Of course we do not know if the details in the Cummings story are accurate, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary I do not see that what he did was unreasonable.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2106 on: May 26, 2020, 08:26:05 AM »
Quote
thought he said his wife was concerned that his eyesight had been bad while he had been ill and she had no idea if it would affect his driving now so he drove for half an hour to check if he could see properly while he drove. I have no idea if he is telling the truth or not - I am not sure how else you would check if your vision was affected while driving without driving for a distance but it seems suspect that he went to a local beauty spot by accident. I think it was wrong that he and his wife and son would get out of the car and sit by the river during lockdown instead of going straight back to their cottage - he should have realised how bad that would look if the public became aware of it.

Simple question, partly because the implicit sexism in this story worries me, but why didn't she drive back to London?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Roses

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2107 on: May 26, 2020, 08:57:15 AM »
Simple question, partly because the implicit sexism in this story worries me, but why didn't she drive back to London?

Can she drive?
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2108 on: May 26, 2020, 08:59:06 AM »
Can she drive?

Well she wrote an article in The Spectator saying that she could. But that could, of course, like so much of her journalism, have been fiction  ;)
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SusanDoris

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2109 on: May 26, 2020, 09:12:28 AM »
I thought he said his wife was concerned that his eyesight had been bad while he had been ill and she had no idea if it would affect his driving now so he drove for half an hour to check if he could see properly while he drove. I have no idea if he is telling the truth or not - I am not sure how else you would check if your vision was affected while driving without driving for a distance but it seems suspect that he went to a local beauty spot by accident. I think it was wrong that he and his wife and son would get out of the car and sit by the river during lockdown instead of going straight back to their cottage - he should have realised how bad that would look if the public became aware of it. 

I get that he has a 4 year old child and that during the 14 day isolation period people were permitted to go outside in their gardens, so I can understand why he went for walks in the nearby woods on his parents' private land with his wife and child. But after the 14 day isolation period, any outdoor 1 hour exercise was supposed to be close by, not a 30 minute drive away so I do not consider that as reasonable.

I can understand his reason for driving to his parents' farm - in this age of increased reports of sexual abuse of children I would not trust any old neighbour or friend with my 4 year old if my children were that young, especially if I thought there was a chance that both parents might be incapacitated for a long time or die. I would want my 4 year-old to be with close family such as a trusted sister and nieces on private land with big gates that could keep out Press intrusion.

The Government guidance said you can leave home to care for someone vulnerable during lockdown - and a 4 year old child is someone vulnerable that needs protection and if adequate protection was a 256 mile drive away, I would do the drive. I would put my 4 year old's interests ahead of the public's perceptions and I would not feel responsible for other people not obeying lock down rules because of their perception of my reasons for driving to protect my child. The Government guidelines require us to use our judgement when caring for vulnerable people so I would follow the guidelines by using my judgement and put the interests of the vulnerable person I had a parental duty to protect ahead of the public reaction to my decisions.

My husband and I left home during lockdown and drove to his mother's house every day to be with her as she all alone and was dying from vascular dementia, bed-ridden, sleeping for most of the day and night, unable to eat or drink and her primary carer had been suddenly admitted to hospital with pancreatitis.   

I am not buying the argument that Cummings should not have taken the option available to him to protect his son (away from Press intrusion if he or his wife were admitted to hospital or died) simply because there were single mothers in similar situations as him who did not have the option of driving to a cottage on private land to isolate near their sister and helpful nieces who would care for their vulnerable child if necessary.

And one of the other questions asked by a reporter at the Press conference was equally meaningless - the reporter said other children had been denied cancer treatment due to lockdown so why should the Cummings offspring merit any special treatment by being cared for when vulnerable. The Cummings child did not have cancer and receive treatment for it so not seeing the special treatment referred to in the question. If other parents had been prevented from driving long-distance to a trusted sibling. niece to care for a young child in case both parents succumbed to a potentially life-threatening illness, the reporter might have had a point.

Of course we do not know if the details in the Cummings story are accurate, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary I do not see that what he did was unreasonable.
A superb post, Gabriella, well considered, thoughtful , rational etc. Excellent.

I listened to three hours of Stephen Nolan on FiveLive the other day and to Cummings yesterday. It's a pity there has not been a more calm approach from the moaning phoners-in, 'let's-drag-them-all-down' reporters etc.
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wigginhall

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2110 on: May 26, 2020, 09:19:02 AM »
But do you trust this government to carry out contact tracing, and so on?    It seems to me that the regulations are being watered down.   Good luck to everybody.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2111 on: May 26, 2020, 09:37:40 AM »
The real question in my mind is however that both The Guardian and The Mirror have tried for several weeks to get a response from Downing Street and have been stonewalled.

This really begs a question about how astute Mr Cummings actually is, people keep comparing him to Rasputin, he looks a lot more like Frank Spencer to me.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2112 on: May 26, 2020, 09:41:17 AM »
Quote
It's a pity there has not been a more calm approach from the moaning phoners-in, 'let's-drag-them-all-down' reporters etc.

Yes, people criticising Cummings' actions, because they haven't been allowed to visit their dying relatives are all just "moaning phoners-in".

I know you will say it's not equivalent.

And you are right it isn't, nobody died in the Cummings household.

At least try to show some empathy for how others are feeling and how his unwise actions make them feel.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 10:05:10 AM by Trentvoyager »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

SteveH

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2113 on: May 26, 2020, 10:01:54 AM »
I thought he said his wife was concerned that his eyesight had been bad while he had been ill and she had no idea if it would affect his driving now so he drove for half an hour to check if he could see properly while he drove. I have no idea if he is telling the truth or not - I am not sure how else you would check if your vision was affected while driving without driving for a distance but it seems suspect that he went to a local beauty spot by accident. I think it was wrong that he and his wife and son would get out of the car and sit by the river during lockdown instead of going straight back to their cottage - he should have realised how bad that would look if the public became aware of it. 

I get that he has a 4 year old child and that during the 14 day isolation period people were permitted to go outside in their gardens, so I can understand why he went for walks in the nearby woods on his parents' private land with his wife and child. But after the 14 day isolation period, any outdoor 1 hour exercise was supposed to be close by, not a 30 minute drive away so I do not consider that as reasonable.

I can understand his reason for driving to his parents' farm - in this age of increased reports of sexual abuse of children I would not trust any old neighbour or friend with my 4 year old if my children were that young, especially if I thought there was a chance that both parents might be incapacitated for a long time or die. I would want my 4 year-old to be with close family such as a trusted sister and nieces on private land with big gates that could keep out Press intrusion.

The Government guidance said you can leave home to care for someone vulnerable during lockdown - and a 4 year old child is someone vulnerable that needs protection and if adequate protection was a 256 mile drive away, I would do the drive. I would put my 4 year old's interests ahead of the public's perceptions and I would not feel responsible for other people not obeying lock down rules because of their perception of my reasons for driving to protect my child. The Government guidelines require us to use our judgement when caring for vulnerable people so I would follow the guidelines by using my judgement and put the interests of the vulnerable person I had a parental duty to protect ahead of the public reaction to my decisions.

My husband and I left home during lockdown and drove to his mother's house every day to be with her as she all alone and was dying from vascular dementia, bed-ridden, sleeping for most of the day and night, unable to eat or drink and her primary carer had been suddenly admitted to hospital with pancreatitis.   

I am not buying the argument that Cummings should not have taken the option available to him to protect his son (away from Press intrusion if he or his wife were admitted to hospital or died) simply because there were single mothers in similar situations as him who did not have the option of driving to a cottage on private land to isolate near their sister and helpful nieces who would care for their vulnerable child if necessary.

And one of the other questions asked by a reporter at the Press conference was equally meaningless - the reporter said other children had been denied cancer treatment due to lockdown so why should the Cummings offspring merit any special treatment by being cared for when vulnerable. The Cummings child did not have cancer and receive treatment for it so not seeing the special treatment referred to in the question. If other parents had been prevented from driving long-distance to a trusted sibling. niece to care for a young child in case both parents succumbed to a potentially life-threatening illness, the reporter might have had a point.

Of course we do not know if the details in the Cummings story are accurate, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary I do not see that what he did was unreasonable.
Anyone who believes Cummings's load of crapola is taking gullibility to a whole new level. He didn't know if his eyesight was good enough to drive safely, so he went for a drive to find out?!
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2114 on: May 26, 2020, 10:02:34 AM »
And, of course, it was pure coincidence that the day they went to Barnard Castle 12th April, ostensibly to test eyesight  ::) , was Mary Wakefield's birthday.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 10:08:46 AM by Trentvoyager »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Gordon

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2115 on: May 26, 2020, 10:09:43 AM »
As far as I can see Cummings' attitude can be summed up as 'me, me, me': but then he is supporting a noted Tory liar whose primary concern is also 'me, me, me'. One hopes that the poor saps in parts of England who deserted Labour for this shower (and Brexit) are beginning to wonder what on earth they have done.

Perhaps, he says hopefully, in the fullness of time this episode will be a small contribution that aids in the breakup of the (dis)United Kingdom.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2116 on: May 26, 2020, 10:10:12 AM »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Roses

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2117 on: May 26, 2020, 10:16:44 AM »
Good for him, I hope many more resign.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2118 on: May 26, 2020, 10:17:40 AM »
Anyone who believes Cummings's load of crapola is taking gullibility to a whole new level. He didn't know if his eyesight was good enough to drive safely, so he went for a drive to find out?!

And with his family in the car, potentially putting them at risk.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2119 on: May 26, 2020, 10:25:38 AM »
From Face book:

*Public Statement regarding Berkhamsted Castle from Peter White, Town Councillor*
There has been discussion in the media regarding visits to castles during the CoronaVirus lockdown.
While I cannot speak for all Berkhamsted Town Council, I wish to make it clear that Berkhamsted Castle is not a suitable destination for eye tests, with or without motor assistance.
If you are having problems with your vision, please seek advice from a medical professional, and do not drive to Berkhamsted Castle as part of your assessment process.
Please do share this statement with members of the public who may be unsure.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2120 on: May 26, 2020, 10:26:34 AM »
Latest poll makes grim reading.


https://savanta.com/coronavirus-data-tracker/

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2121 on: May 26, 2020, 10:29:16 AM »
Simple question, partly because the implicit sexism in this story worries me, but why didn't she drive back to London?
If I was his wife I would have said "screw your job Dom, it's not that important that I would drive all the way to London for you to go back to work, plus your boss is a tit."

But I don't believe the journey to a pretty Castle was to test his eyes - it sounds bogus to me.

And for all we know she may have driven part of the way but I think it's reasonable that she would not have been up for driving 256 miles to London. I wouldn't be - I could do it if I had to but would find a reason to not have to. I told my daughter that I wouldn't drive more than 150 miles from London to get her if she got ill at university so she better pick a university within 150 miles of London. My husband on the other hand is more than happy to drive all the way to Scotland and would consider it an enjoyable way to spend 7 hours.

 
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2122 on: May 26, 2020, 10:58:57 AM »
A superb post, Gabriella, well considered, thoughtful , rational etc. Excellent.

I listened to three hours of Stephen Nolan on FiveLive the other day and to Cummings yesterday. It's a pity there has not been a more calm approach from the moaning phoners-in, 'let's-drag-them-all-down' reporters etc.
Thanks Susan. Yes I found the questions from some of the reporters at the Press conference very rehearsed and seemed to have no bearing on the actual statement made by Cummings. The reporters would have been better off finding some evidence to back up their allegations of Cummings breaking the lock down rules. I would have focused on the jolly to the Castle, as the drive to Durham seems to be within the published Government guidance if the reason Cummings went there was that it was the best way to care for a vulnerable 4 year old while putting the least number of people at risk of getting very sick from Covid-19 caught from said 4 year-old. I would agree with the assessment that a 17 year old and 20 year old were at less risk of getting very sick compared to a neighbour or relative or friend of a similar age to Cummings.

Reporter: The British public want an apology /resignation because you broke the lockdown rules because you consider yourself special

Dom: No I didn't - the guidance allows exceptions to the "stay at home" rule if you left to care for a vulnerable person such as a 4 year old child

Reporter: That's a loophole you have found. And other people don't have the privilege of having parents with cottages on private land so you shouldn't be able to avail yourself of any option that the rest of the public do not have access to, if you are claiming we are all in this together. Think of the single mothers and the cancer patients denied treatment so show some solidarity and put your son at risk too"

Dom: Eh no thanks - I'm a parent so won't risk dumping my 4 year old with the nearest neighbour, plus the 4 year old could get sick/   be a carrier of Covid-19 and could make my neighbour very sick. The exception is there in the published government guidance for the public to avail themselves of it if the public think it necessary, because the government always thought caring for a vulnerable person is more important than staying at home during lockdown.

Reporter: You have suddenly introduced the idea that people can use their own judgement

Dom: Um no - it was always in the published government guidance to use your judgement in exceptional cases such as caring for a vulnerable person

Reporter: The public are angry because they haven't seen their relatives and you have so you should apologise and resign

Dom: I wasn't in Durham to visit my parents - I was there to isolate myself for 14 days while also protecting my vulnerable 4 year old child in the event that my wife and I both got too sick to care for him and did not want to dump him on random neighbours, plus I did not want to infect said random neighbour by asking them to care for my 4 year-old...….Plus my neighbours hate me and my boss - because I am a slimy individual with questionable politics and  my boss is a tit. (Okay he didn't say that last part)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 11:01:11 AM by Gabriella »
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2123 on: May 26, 2020, 11:33:02 AM »
Thanks Susan. Yes I found the questions from some of the reporters at the Press conference very rehearsed and seemed to have no bearing on the actual statement made by Cummings. The reporters would have been better off finding some evidence to back up their allegations of Cummings breaking the lock down rules. I would have focused on the jolly to the Castle, as the drive to Durham seems to be within the published Government guidance if the reason Cummings went there was that it was the best way to care for a vulnerable 4 year old while putting the least number of people at risk of getting very sick from Covid-19 caught from said 4 year-old. I would agree with the assessment that a 17 year old and 20 year old were at less risk of getting very sick compared to a neighbour or relative or friend of a similar age to Cummings.

Reporter: The British public want an apology /resignation because you broke the lockdown rules because you consider yourself special

Dom: No I didn't - the guidance allows exceptions to the "stay at home" rule if you left to care for a vulnerable person such as a 4 year old child

Reporter: That's a loophole you have found. And other people don't have the privilege of having parents with cottages on private land so you shouldn't be able to avail yourself of any option that the rest of the public do not have access to, if you are claiming we are all in this together. Think of the single mothers and the cancer patients denied treatment so show some solidarity and put your son at risk too"

Dom: Eh no thanks - I'm a parent so won't risk dumping my 4 year old with the nearest neighbour, plus the 4 year old could get sick/   be a carrier of Covid-19 and could make my neighbour very sick. The exception is there in the published government guidance for the public to avail themselves of it if the public think it necessary, because the government always thought caring for a vulnerable person is more important than staying at home during lockdown.

Reporter: You have suddenly introduced the idea that people can use their own judgement

Dom: Um no - it was always in the published government guidance to use your judgement in exceptional cases such as caring for a vulnerable person

Reporter: The public are angry because they haven't seen their relatives and you have so you should apologise and resign

Dom: I wasn't in Durham to visit my parents - I was there to isolate myself for 14 days while also protecting my vulnerable 4 year old child in the event that my wife and I both got too sick to care for him and did not want to dump him on random neighbours, plus I did not want to infect said random neighbour by asking them to care for my 4 year-old...….Plus my neighbours hate me and my boss - because I am a slimy individual with questionable politics and  my boss is a tit. (Okay he didn't say that last part)
Mention was made by the Cummings that the law here was not completely comprehensive and to me suggested that he was formulating his defence within that.
That means he was looking for loopholes either before and/or during the events or in formulating his story.
interpretation
The other point here is that the law is unlikely to have been tested nor his interpretation.
If he himself claims to know this law so well then that because he had a hand in its formulation. If so then he is responsible in part for making an effectively ineffective law with giant loopholes in it.
 

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2124 on: May 26, 2020, 12:01:48 PM »
The Government guidance said you can leave home to care for someone vulnerable during lockdown - and a 4 year old child is someone vulnerable ...
In due course I comment in more detail on your lengthy post as it contains numerous inaccuracies. But this one I can mail straight away.

A 4 year old child is most definitely NOT considered to be vulnerable in the context of child protection or COVID-19 simply because the are a 4 year old child. They would only be considered vulnerable were that child to have certain underlying health conditions or where there were specific safeguarding concerns - as far as I'm aware neither of those apply to Cummings son.

As you may or may not know I am the owner of a nursery - and when we were required to close we were allowed to remain open for the children of key workers unable to look after their children and children legally defined as vulnerable. We have about 30 4 year olds on our books - not a single one is classified as vulnerable in the legal context which is what would apply in terms of justification of breaking lock-down/self isolation.

The government has provided guidance on who is, and is not, considered vulnerable in cover-19 terms - it does not include 4 year old children.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 12:18:38 PM by ProfessorDavey »