Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 248735 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2225 on: May 27, 2020, 10:40:27 AM »
I should think that, assuming that they were the true reasons, most parents would understand and relate to them. Neither do I feel betrayed.

However, I do care that, as the spin doctor in chief for the current regime in the current crisis, having taken the decisions and actions that they took,  they attempt to keep it hidden and he does not resign.
 
Sure. I didn’t vote Tory and I always thought it was only a matter of time before Boris lost his political capital. It was all built on self-serving spin and lies.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2226 on: May 27, 2020, 10:44:34 AM »
This again relates back to the muddled narrative. Cummings and Wakefield had Schrodinger's Covid - it was an emergency because they had it on the drive, but they didn't cause any risk because they didn't have it on the drive.

NS, I think you have finally solved quantum mechanics - 

The Dissembling Universe Theory: Electrons and their mates are all lying bastards!
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2227 on: May 27, 2020, 10:51:06 AM »
You do know that calling someone a snowflake does not usually cause them to change their assessment of their abilities though it might make you feel smug and superior? I get that sounding smug and superior is your usual posting style on here.
Nice ad hominem attack.

The wife is a journalist- I would not take everything she wrote as being factual- she wasn’t writing a deposition. She was writing an article to project particular images that she wanted to share or convey certain ideas. She also said Cummings was a kind husband.
The whole episode as recounted by Wakefield (before the controversy) and by Cummings (after the story broke) are so full of holes it becomes pretty challenging to know where the truth lies sadly.

So Wakefield claims:

'Day in, day out for ten days he lay doggo with a high fever and spasms that made the muscles lump and twitch in his legs. He could breathe, but only in a limited, shallow way,'

Yet Cummings claims he was well enough to drive to a hospital smack in the middle of that 10 day period.

And I'm sure she does think he is a kind husband - why would she have married him otherwise. But just being a kind husband doesn't exempt you from being a nightmare boss, nor having a semi-detached acquaintance with the truth.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2228 on: May 27, 2020, 10:52:15 AM »
Sure. I didn’t vote Tory and I always thought it was only a matter of time before Boris lost his political capital. It was all built on self-serving spin and lies.
And who is the chief architect of that self service spin and lies?

wigginhall

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2229 on: May 27, 2020, 10:54:32 AM »
Cummings has turned the rules into a matter of personal choice, whereas they were taken as a collective effort to defeat the virus.  How naive we are.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2230 on: May 27, 2020, 10:59:29 AM »
Cummings has turned the rules into a matter of personal choice, whereas they were taken as a collective effort to defeat the virus.  How naive we are.
Exactly the anger is two fold.

Firstly the notion that it is one rule for the elite, another for everyone else.

But secondly that we were all being a bit stupid for following the rules rather than bending them to suit our personal needs and 'instinct' - blimey how many people would have taken the agonising decision not to visit a loved one who was dying if they'd thought the rules were, basically, optional, according to our personal choice.

SusanDoris

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2231 on: May 27, 2020, 11:00:38 AM »
NS

If your opinion of my character and feelings is  as you have portrayed it here i.e. as hard and unfeeling, after many years of reading my posts, then I am very sorry to hear it.

Gabriella

Your rational and impartial assessment would, in my opinion, make you a very good candidate for being on the Enquiry Committee which might or might not be set up later.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2232 on: May 27, 2020, 11:08:46 AM »
NS

If your opinion of my character and feelings is  as you have portrayed it here i.e. as hard and unfeeling, after many years of reading my posts, then I am very sorry to hear it.

Gabriella

Your rational and impartial assessment would, in my opinion, make you a very good candidate for being on the Enquiry Committee which might or might not be set up later.

I am just going on your dismissal of those who didn't get to see their loved ones before death who are upset at this as whingers.

As for Gabriella, I would have no problem with her being on an enquiry but you stating that her assessment as rational and impartial seems to me more that you agree with her. So I don't think you are making a rational and impartial statement there.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2233 on: May 27, 2020, 11:08:57 AM »
Nice ad hominem attack.
You’re welcome. You made a similar comment about Sriram’s posting style so I knew you would approve.
Quote
The whole episode as recounted by Wakefield (before the controversy) and by Cummings (after the story broke) are so full of holes it becomes pretty challenging to know where the truth lies sadly.

So Wakefield claims:

'Day in, day out for ten days he lay doggo with a high fever and spasms that made the muscles lump and twitch in his legs. He could breathe, but only in a limited, shallow way,'

Yet Cummings claims he was well enough to drive to a hospital smack in the middle of that 10 day period.

And I'm sure she does think he is a kind husband - why would she have married him otherwise. But just being a kind husband doesn't exempt you from being a nightmare boss, nor having a semi-detached acquaintance with the truth.
Yes that was my point - I agree with you - hard to know what the truth is.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2234 on: May 27, 2020, 11:10:22 AM »
And who is the chief architect of that self service spin and lies?
Cummings - that’s why a lot of people don’t like him and why Boris is so desperate to hang onto him.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2235 on: May 27, 2020, 11:21:51 AM »
Yes that was my point - I agree with you - hard to know what the truth is.
What we do know is that Cummings drove 260 miles from London to Durham - that isn't in doubt.

We also know that he drove from Durham to Barnard Castle and back - that also isn't in doubt.

Without clear justification both are breaches of the rules. I have seen no credible justification for the first trip and there can be no justification for the latter.

But you cannot let people create a mist of confusion and confiscation to get away with wrong doing. He is a senior public servant, he was the architect of the rules, he broke the rules.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2236 on: May 27, 2020, 11:22:12 AM »
Exactly the anger is two fold.

Firstly the notion that it is one rule for the elite, another for everyone else.

But secondly that we were all being a bit stupid for following the rules rather than bending them to suit our personal needs and 'instinct' - blimey how many people would have taken the agonising decision not to visit a loved one who was dying if they'd thought the rules were, basically, optional, according to our personal choice.
I think lots of members of the public were exercising their own judgement- I know I was. I stayed with my dying mother-in-law for hours each day during lockdown down because she was alone in her home. When my husband and I left another of his siblings took over for a few hours. We didn’t visit my aunt in hospital (my mother-in-law’s primary carer) because the hospital would not allow visitors due to lockdown. I saw lots of neighbours on VE Day exercising their own judgements. Which is probably why there are many of us who don’t feel betrayed.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

wigginhall

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2237 on: May 27, 2020, 11:22:58 AM »
Exactly the anger is two fold.

Firstly the notion that it is one rule for the elite, another for everyone else.

But secondly that we were all being a bit stupid for following the rules rather than bending them to suit our personal needs and 'instinct' - blimey how many people would have taken the agonising decision not to visit a loved one who was dying if they'd thought the rules were, basically, optional, according to our personal choice.

My wife hasn't seen her mum for 10 weeks, and missed her 95th birthday.  Her best friend died of covid, and she hasn't met anyone during that time.   I suppose my wife should have gone to see her, under the reasonable excuse clause.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2238 on: May 27, 2020, 11:26:11 AM »
What we do know is that Cummings drove 260 miles from London to Durham - that isn't in doubt.

We also know that he drove from Durham to Barnard Castle and back - that also isn't in doubt.

Without clear justification both are breaches of the rules. I have seen no credible justification for the first trip and there can be no justification for the latter.

But you cannot let people create a mist of confusion and confiscation to get away with wrong doing. He is a senior public servant, he was the architect of the rules, he broke the rules.
You have not seen credible justification for the drive to Durham but clearly there are others who seem to disagree with your assessment. I agree about the trip to the Castle. I think the police should be looking into it and speaking to Cummings and issuing a fine.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2239 on: May 27, 2020, 11:33:39 AM »
I think lots of members of the public were exercising their own judgement- I know I was.
Well I suspect you are in a minority - I think  most people accepted the rules and followed them - they didn't take a decision as to whether an individual rule applied to them because it was inconvenient, or horrible unpalatable.

I stayed with my dying mother-in-law for hours each day during lockdown down because she was alone in her home. When my husband and I left another of his siblings took over for a few hours.
But you have said this is because your mother in law was genuinely vulnerable (in the guidance terms) and had lost her care options, as her carer had been hospitalised and I presume you weren't symptomatic while traveling. That eventuality is within the guidance and is entirely different from the 4-year old who had not lost his care options - both his parents were available and at no time were both of them so ill that they couldn't look after him. And they were in self isolation, not lock-down - the rules on the former are, obviously, much stricter than the latter.

We didn’t visit my aunt in hospital (my mother-in-law’s primary carer) because the hospital would not allow visitors due to lockdown. I saw lots of neighbours on VE Day exercising their own judgements. Which is probably why there are many of us who don’t feel betrayed.
Many more do however - have you actually seen the polling on the issue - it is vitriolic and across the political spectrum.

The most recent shows that by 80% (did) to 9% (did not) people think he did break the rules. By 82% to 9% the public think he should apologise, by 78% to 8% people don't believe he drove to Barnard Castle to check his eyesight etc etc.

So you may frequent a bubble out of touch with public opinion on the matter, but most of us here don't.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 12:00:16 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2240 on: May 27, 2020, 11:37:46 AM »
You have not seen credible justification for the drive to Durham but clearly there are others who seem to disagree with your assessment.
The public have all seen same justification and by an overwhelming majority (about 80% to 9%) they agree with me that he broke the rules, i.e. there was no credible justification for the trip.

I agree about the trip to the Castle. I think the police should be looking into it and speaking to Cummings and issuing a fine.
The Police are looking into it, but that isn't the end to it - this a matter of misconduct in his public office role - if he broke his own rules he needs to resign or be sacked from that office.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 11:58:32 AM by ProfessorDavey »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2241 on: May 27, 2020, 12:39:37 PM »
Well I suspect you are in a minority - I think  most people accepted the rules and followed them - they didn't take a decision as to whether an individual rule applied to them because it was inconvenient, or horrible unpalatable.
We'll have to see the surveys on how strictly the public were following the rules. There were some rules that were followed strictly -  for example not visiting care homes or dying relatives as the care home or hospital staff would not allow it, but I suspect there were some rules being broken especially when it came to social distancing when going into shops or dropping off food to elderly parents and standing 2m away to chat to them or people leaving home to run errands. I have fasted during Ramadan for over 25 years, therefore I know our bodies can function well without food and water for long periods of the day - in fact I dusted, vacuumed and cleaned the whole house the day before Eid while fasting. Yet lots of people have been exercising their judgement to leave the house to buy food they could easily do without even though the rules state only leave the house to buy essential supplies. Lots of people stating they have put on weight during lockdown.

On VE day neighbours bringing chairs and sitting on other people's driveways sharing wine and food at a distance of 2m...apart from refills of food and drink. The kids and I were fasting so could not partake but we were standing on the pavement outside a neighbour's house chatting to everyone. Neighbours from the top of the road wandered down to our end to chat at a distance of 2 m (most of the time). We wandered back with them to their end of the roadto be introduced or say hello to other neighbours. Not sure - was any of that adhering to lockdown rules? 
 
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But you have said this is because your mother in law was genuinely vulnerable (in the guidance terms) and had lost her care options, as she had been hospitalised.
I'm not sure. She was dying - carers came into the house 3 times a day for about 10 or 15 mins to see to her personal needs - they had access to a key.  Possibly the only useful thing we could have done was call the District Nurse to administer morphine if she appeared to be in distress during the process of dying. Obviously we did not want her to die alone and we did not want her to die and not be discovered for hours. She was mostly sleeping and would occasionally appear to half-open her eyes and she would sometimes move her hands but was not responsive as far as I could tell - she would appear to look at us sometimes but no idea if she registered who we were. Her breathing was laboured sometimes and shallow sometimes. Were we providing care or making ourselves feel better - I don't know. We all took shifts - was it essential that we all took turns? I remember when she stopped eating and drinking while still relatively alert and responding to us, the doctor said she was not in discomfort and they would not administer IV fluids as that was just briefly prolonging the inevitable and would be for our benefit so we would feel better that she was not appearing to be starving to death before our eyes.

Quote
That eventuality is within the guidance and is entirely different from the 4-year old who had not lost his care options - both his parents were available and at no time were both of them so ill that they couldn't look after him. And they were in self isolation, not lock-down - the rules on the former are, obviously, much stricter than the latter.
The carefully crafted story according to Cummings is that they were not in self-isolation at the time of the drive to Durham. The issue hinges on whether preventative measures such as driving to Durham is reasonable. Cummings and some Tory cabinet ministers seem to think it was reasonable. I think it was reasonable if they thought there was no one in London they felt close enough to who they could reasonably ask to risk their health and disrupt their lives for 2 weeks by taking on child-care of a potentially infectious child. In a liberal Parliamentary democracy, who should determine whether it was reasonable? The Press, the public, the police?
Quote
Many more do however - have you actually seen the polling on the issue - it is vitriolic and across the political spectrum.

The most recent shows that by 80% (did) to 9% (did not) people think he did break the rules. By 82% to 9% the public think he should apologise, by 78% to 8% people don't believe he drove to Barnard Castle to check his eyesight etc etc.

So you may frequent a bubble out of touch with public opinion on the matter, but most of us here don't.
What is the percentage of those polled who think he should be investigated by the police and fined and what is the percentage that think he should resign or be sacked? Also do you have a link to the percentages who are vitriolic? What is the vitriolic?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2242 on: May 27, 2020, 12:45:08 PM »
We'll have to see the surveys on how strictly the public were following the rules.
Err - the public were not responsible for generating the rules - are you unable to see that if you are the architect of the rules you have a much greater responsibility to abide by those rules as otherwise it undermines the rules for everyone. And, of course, there is the issue of hypocrisy and double standards if you are responsible for rules that the government expects everyone to abide by, yet you break them yourself.

SusanDoris

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2243 on: May 27, 2020, 01:06:54 PM »
I am just going on your dismissal of those who didn't get to see their loved ones before death who are upset at this as whingers.
Nowhere have I 'dismissed' people or the upset they feel, and I don't think I called people whingers. I don't think I used the word 'whingers', I think I used moaners and nowhere did I dismiss their feelings of upset. What I challenge is their feeling that because they feel that particular way, whatever their particular  circumstances, others have to do what they wish them to do, rather than what those others consider is correct and more beneficial to them in  their personal circumstances. It is as if I should want to stop Dominic Cummings doing what he thinks is the best for his child because I am unable to get out and about because of my blindness. that would be really stupid. Whatever the moral and factual rights and wrongs of Dominic Cummings' behaviour, it would appear that in London his child  could well have been subjected to
harassment. But I do not know.

I have tried to edit that, but I'll leave it as it  is in spite of the repetition.
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As for Gabriella, I would have no problem with her being on an enquiry but you stating that her assessment as rational and impartial seems to me more that you agree with her. So I don't think you are making a rational and impartial statement there.
Wrong assumption. There is much that I have disagreed with gabriella on occasions, and I did notice a minor detail or two which I could have picked up on, but overall I think her posts show a calm, considered and considerate tone.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 01:16:50 PM by SusanDoris »
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2244 on: May 27, 2020, 01:22:12 PM »
Err - the public were not responsible for generating the rules - are you unable to see that if you are the architect of the rules you have a much greater responsibility to abide by those rules as otherwise it undermines the rules for everyone. And, of course, there is the issue of hypocrisy and double standards if you are responsible for rules that the government expects everyone to abide by, yet you break them yourself.
Yes I can certainly see that Cummings should have abided by the rules and not driven to the Castle in breach of the rules and yes I can see the hypocrisy of breaking the rules. I can also see that if Boris thinks he really needs him, he is not going to sack him regardless of the hypocrisy if he thinks his government will survive this.

If Cummings, and not the public, was responsible for generating the rules, presumably Cummings determined that the rules he generated allowed him to drive to Durham to prevent harm to his son, even if that harm was an anticipated harm that had not yet crystallised but had a reasonable probability of occurring in the near future.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2245 on: May 27, 2020, 01:30:51 PM »
If Cummings, and not the public, was responsible for generating the rules, presumably Cummings determined that the rules he generated allowed him to drive to Durham ...
Indeed, because he felt that the rules didn't apply to him, only to the plebs. Not going to let some pesky lock down rules ruin a nice trip out for his wife's birthday to a well know (but not local) beauty spot.

One rule for the elite, another for everyone else.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 01:36:22 PM by ProfessorDavey »

SusanDoris

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2246 on: May 27, 2020, 01:34:55 PM »
On the subject of distancing, it could well be said that I have not kept exactly to the right distance. The Age Concern lady who does my shopping for me carries the bags through to the kitchen and takes everything out of the bags. During the time she is in my house, the distance between us can easily be closer than 2 metres. However, I do not worry about that. The instances of covid 19 hereabouts is very low and being a quite long-term volunteer for Age Concern, she is well aware of how to be careful.

From the time of her visit yesterday until the next time she comes, I shall not be anywhere near any other person, so if by some remote chance I have caught covid 19 from her or any of the food packaging - which I certainly wasn't going to wipe every surface of -  then I shall not pass it on to anyone. I realise that I am lucky compared with some of the difficulties other blind people are coping with, according to In Touch yesterday, but not having my reader or my cleaner coming is making life difficult.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 01:39:04 PM by SusanDoris »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2247 on: May 27, 2020, 01:35:24 PM »
... to prevent harm to his son, even if that harm was an anticipated harm that had not yet crystallised but had a reasonable probability of occurring in the near future.
What harm - there was no harm at the time he made the decision, the possible scenario of both parents at the same time being unable to look after their son never happened and Cummings would have know from the stats that it was very unlikely to happen.

And even if we accept the hypothetical risk (compared to the real risk of driving 260 miles with symptoms) all possible solutions that didn't not require them to break self isolation should have been exhausted before contemplating driving 260 miles. They weren't.

If Cummings and Wakefield were so confident that what they did was right, why did Wakefield fail to mention the midnight 260 mile journey in her article. Why did the news items about Cummings being ill fail to mention that he was in Durham and instead implied he was 'at home'.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2248 on: May 27, 2020, 01:53:03 PM »
Indeed, because he felt that the rules didn't apply to him, only to the plebs. Not going to let some pesky lock down rules ruin a nice trip out for his wife's birthday to a well know (but not local) beauty spot.

One rule for the elite, another for everyone else.
Or his exercise of his judgement to drive to Durham for child-care was reasonable for both him and the general public - if members of the public had similar child care concerns and had used their judgement to interpret the statements made by Jenny Harries as allowing them to drive for child-care. I guess we'll find out when we have more information from the people who made the rules.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2249 on: May 27, 2020, 02:15:12 PM »
What harm - there was no harm at the time he made the decision, the possible scenario of both parents at the same time being unable to look after their son never happened and Cummings would have know from the stats that it was very unlikely to happen.

And even if we accept the hypothetical risk (compared to the real risk of driving 260 miles with symptoms) all possible solutions that didn't not require them to break self isolation should have been exhausted before contemplating driving 260 miles. They weren't.
The story is that neither of them were displaying Covid-19 symptoms at the time of the drive to Durham - no continuous cough or temperature so no need to self-isolate until symptoms appeared.

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If Cummings and Wakefield were so confident that what they did was right, why did Wakefield fail to mention the midnight 260 mile journey in her article. Why did the news items about Cummings being ill fail to mention that he was in Durham and instead implied he was 'at home'.
Could be any number of reasons including the one you are speculating about. It could be that they did not fancy drawing the attention of the Twitter Mob, social-media trolls and fair-minded tabloid Press (famous for not making things up) to Cummings' parents' farm. Cummings might be fair game but his parents and sister and nieces presumably weren't.

Hiding things is a natural consequence of having online social media and journalists -  as much as thinking that people are interested in someone else's every movement or thinking that others are interested in every thought that pops into someone else's brain.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi