Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 248955 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2300 on: May 28, 2020, 01:31:36 PM »
Cummings should be held accountable after investigation. I believe Durham police are looking into it.
Indeed they are and have concluded their investigation and they have found that Cummings broke the rules when driving to Barnard Castle.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2301 on: May 28, 2020, 01:33:02 PM »
Good - at least someone in authority has reached a conclusion on the trip to the castle.
So do you now agree that he should resign or be sacked. It is an untenable position if you are the architect of incredible important rules for public health and then break them yourself.

Roses

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2302 on: May 28, 2020, 01:49:46 PM »
Indeed they are and have concluded their investigation and they have found that Cummings broke the rules when driving to Barnard Castle.

But they aren't going to take the matter any further!
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2303 on: May 28, 2020, 01:56:46 PM »
But they aren't going to take the matter any further!
On the basis that they are not applying retrospective action to anyone later found to be in breach of the regulations and that they wouldn't treat Cummings differently to anyone else (which is absolutely right). The police said that had they stopped him they would have given him a verbal warning and required him to return to the Durham property immediately. Again this was their general approach - their so called 4Es, Engage, Explain Encourage before Enforce. Having given Cummings a warning they would only have taken enforcement action if he failed to comply.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2304 on: May 28, 2020, 01:56:55 PM »
So do you now agree that he should resign or be sacked. It is an untenable position if you are the architect of incredible important rules for public health and then break them yourself.
I am indifferent. It's a political issue. From a moral perspective I won't be taking that into consideration when I decide whether I am going to observe lock down / social distancing etc. I will be trying to comply with the rules as best as I can/ am willing/ need to in order to avoid fines - so that I can try to avoid infecting other people or becoming infected myself so that the economy can try to recover.

I think a lot of people are in danger due to worries about losing their jobs and having no income to look after their families or to spend to try to support businesses and thereby boost the economy.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2305 on: May 28, 2020, 02:02:27 PM »
I am indifferent. It's a political issue.
But when we were saying that it is a political and moral issue you were claiming it was a matter for the police:

'The people who decide on these things - the police, the CPS and the judiciary will have to investigate and make a decision on whether the drive to Durham was reasonable or not.'

Now when the police have found that he did breach the regulations (not just fail to comply with the guidance which is a lower threshold), you suddenly start saying it is a political matter.

You are tying yourself up in knots Gabriella.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2306 on: May 28, 2020, 02:21:38 PM »
But when we were saying that it is a political and moral issue you were claiming it was a matter for the police:

'The people who decide on these things - the police, the CPS and the judiciary will have to investigate and make a decision on whether the drive to Durham was reasonable or not.'

Now when the police have found that he did breach the regulations (not just fail to comply with the guidance which is a lower threshold), you suddenly start saying it is a political matter.

You are tying yourself up in knots Gabriella.
I don't think I am. It was a police matter as to whether Cummings and wife breached the lock down - the police have decided they did by driving to the Castle. They seem to have made no comment about the drive to Durham so not sure what happens or who is responsible for investigating that. The police have decided to not take any further action over the trip to the Castle.

The police action is a separate issue from whether Cummings now resigns or is sacked as a result of the breach of the lockdown. If there are civil service codes that govern this - it becomes a civil service code issue and there must be a process for this. If there is no breach of a civil service code it is a political issue - how much will the government be hurt by Cummings staying rather than Cummings going. 
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2307 on: May 28, 2020, 02:37:19 PM »
...
Cummings should be held accountable after investigation. I believe Durham police are looking into it. Whether he gets sacked or not depends on how useful he is to the government. I am a pragmatist - if he is actually more use in office than out because his replacement would be even more incompetent, I am ok with him staying in office even though I dislike the spin and lies etc. We're stuck with Boris during this pandemic due to our FPTP electoral system and the way election campaigns are run and the limited attention span and attention to detail and the beliefs of a significant number of UK voters  - it's a very imperfect system.

Well, are we stuck with Johnson? Cummings is no use at all to the government. The Conservatives have a majority of 80 it only takes 40 Tories to side with the opposition to wipe out their lead. Unthinkable at the moment, even without Cummings being held to account.

But ... we are already heading for an excess death toll of around 70k, if this starts to rise to 80 or 90k ..., people fail to get back to work, when we fail to get a free trade deal with the EU and all we have is this continuing bumbling incompetence ...?   
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Enki

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2308 on: May 28, 2020, 02:55:31 PM »
I agree. Cummings screwed up badly and should have to pay the price for doing so.

I agree. He definitely should pay the price by either resigning or by being sacked. Sadly, unless enough Tory MPs object,  probably nothing will happen. I assume you would also want Stephen Kinnock to pay the price as he screwed up badly as well. In his case, what should that price be? Sacking of his position as shadow minister for Asian affairs, perhaps? Or, maybe, losing the party whip altogether? What do you think?
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Steven Wright

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2309 on: May 28, 2020, 03:14:42 PM »
Well, are we stuck with Johnson? Cummings is no use at all to the government. The Conservatives have a majority of 80 it only takes 40 Tories to side with the opposition to wipe out their lead. Unthinkable at the moment, even without Cummings being held to account.

But ... we are already heading for an excess death toll of around 70k, if this starts to rise to 80 or 90k ..., people fail to get back to work, when we fail to get a free trade deal with the EU and all we have is this continuing bumbling incompetence ...?
I've always liked Keir Starmer so unless he does something to screw up or the media spin or Twitter mob neutralise him, I guess there is hope that Boris will be banished. And if Boris goes presumably Cummings goes too.

ETA: I notice Keir Starmer said that failing to sack Cummings has left the government looking "untrustworthy and unprincipled". That must be why I am indifferent to Cummings actions - I always thought this government was untrustworthy and unprincipled so I don't feel betrayed.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 03:30:31 PM by Gabriella »
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2310 on: May 28, 2020, 03:21:49 PM »
I agree. He definitely should pay the price by either resigning or by being sacked. Sadly, unless enough Tory MPs object,  probably nothing will happen. I assume you would also want Stephen Kinnock to pay the price as he screwed up badly as well. In his case, what should that price be? Sacking of his position as shadow minister for Asian affairs, perhaps? Or, maybe, losing the party whip altogether? What do you think?
Kinnock posted a picture of himself breaching guidelines - so the Press and public could not really get a proper head of steam going. 

Maybe most of the current crop of MPs and civil servants have been indulging in some minor breaches of one kind or another. Maybe the reporters should investigate each and every one of them and they should all be sacked or resign once the Press have written their story. Would we notice much change in the current shambles if we lost most of the MPs and civil service?
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2311 on: May 28, 2020, 03:25:59 PM »
Kinnock posted a picture of himself breaching guidelines - so the Press and public could not really get a proper head of steam going.
Kinnock wasn't one of the architects of the rules, so the comparison isn't really relevant.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2312 on: May 28, 2020, 03:35:51 PM »
I don't think I am. It was a police matter as to whether Cummings and wife breached the lock down - the police have decided they did by driving to the Castle. They seem to have made no comment about the drive to Durham so not sure what happens or who is responsible for investigating that. The police have decided to not take any further action over the trip to the Castle.

The police action is a separate issue from whether Cummings now resigns or is sacked as a result of the breach of the lockdown. If there are civil service codes that govern this - it becomes a civil service code issue and there must be a process for this. If there is no breach of a civil service code it is a political issue - how much will the government be hurt by Cummings staying rather than Cummings going.
Actually the police only considered whether Cummins breached the regulations (ie.e the law), they did not consider whether he had breached the guidance (or rules) i.e. the stay-at-home or self isolation.

They did make a comment about the London-Durham trip exactly to that effect:

'Durham Constabulary does not consider that by locating himself at his Father's premises, Mr Cummings committed an offence contrary to regulation 6 of the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions( (England) Regulations 2020. (We are concerned here with breaches of the Regulations, not the general Government guidance to "stay at  home"'

Now actually the Durham police have no jurisdiction regarding the original trip in relation to the Regulations as they are specifically relates to:

'During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse'

Because any breach of those regulations relating to the 260 mile trip will have taken place in London, as any offence relates to a decision to leave the place where they were living, i.e. their Islington home.

Whether the Met will get involved, I have no idea, but it is really only they that can determine whether a breach of the regulations took place.


The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2313 on: May 28, 2020, 03:37:19 PM »
Kinnock wasn't one of the architects of the rules, so the comparison isn't really relevant.
He is an MP so is in public office and so presumably should be setting an example.

I am not sure Cummings was much of an architect either - they were getting yelled at from various quarters including certain journalists and sections of the public to put the country into lockdown.

https://www.medialens.org/2020/for-unknown-reasons-they-waited-and-watched-lancet-editor-exposes-devastating-government-failure-on-coronavirus/
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Enki

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2314 on: May 28, 2020, 03:55:33 PM »
Kinnock wasn't one of the architects of the rules, so the comparison isn't really relevant.

We are obviously going to disagree about this.  I think it's entirely relevant. The same argument applies. He felt it was 'essential travel' even though the police urged him to comply with  the restrictions. It has to be the same rule for everyone or anyone could say that they were travelling the equivalent of Wales to London to visit relatives just to deliver essential supplies. He is an MP, voted for by the majority of his constituents, and representing them and their interests. If Cummings should be penalised for his trip to Barnard Castle then Kinnock should be punished for making his trip to see his parents, coincidentally on his Dad's birthday, of course.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2315 on: May 28, 2020, 04:21:29 PM »
We are obviously going to disagree about this.  I think it's entirely relevant. The same argument applies. He felt it was 'essential travel' even though the police urged him to comply with  the restrictions. It has to be the same rule for everyone or anyone could say that they were travelling the equivalent of Wales to London to visit relatives just to deliver essential supplies. He is an MP, voted for by the majority of his constituents, and representing them and their interests. If Cummings should be penalised for his trip to Barnard Castle then Kinnock should be punished for making his trip to see his parents, coincidentally on his Dad's birthday, of course.
On the basis that they broke the rules - yes it is the same. We can argue til the cows come home which is a worse breach, but that isn't the point - they both broke the rule and should receive criticism and potentially warnings or action from the police.

But that isn't the only matter - as Cummins is one of the chief architects (actually almost certainly the chief architect) of the policy then his breach is more serious. Firstly from the perspective of hypocrisy and 'one rule for us, another for them' - but also his breach is far, far more serious in terms of bring the policy itself into disrepute - it is far more corrosive for public confidence in a policy if the person who wrote that policy can't be bothered to abide by it than for someone who had no involvement in the development of the policy.

So, yes the police response should be the same (and indeed the Durham police have been at pains to state that are treated this incident exactly as they would for anyone else) but the response of the public is, quite rightly, different, and the response of the government needs to be different too if they are to rebuild trust in the policy.

If you want much closer examples, then you need to look at Ferguson and Calderwood, although their involvement in policy development was less than Cummings and their breaches were less serious as there was no evidence than anyone involved had symptoms, and was likely contagious, unlike for Cummins and Wakefield. Yet both of them resigned. I guess neither was as valuable to Boris as Cummings.

Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2316 on: May 28, 2020, 04:27:08 PM »
We are obviously going to disagree about this.  I think it's entirely relevant. The same argument applies. He felt it was 'essential travel' even though the police urged him to comply with  the restrictions. It has to be the same rule for everyone or anyone could say that they were travelling the equivalent of Wales to London to visit relatives just to deliver essential supplies. He is an MP, voted for by the majority of his constituents, and representing them and their interests. If Cummings should be penalised for his trip to Barnard Castle then Kinnock should be punished for making his trip to see his parents, coincidentally on his Dad's birthday, of course.

Obviously the police have to treat everyone equally, which wrt. the Barnard Castle trip they seem to have done. However resigning or firing from a position is not down to the police, being more a moral matter, and the circumstances are not the same:

Cummings was infected when travelling to Durham and his wife thought to be (sounds more like food poisoning or norovirus) and they were transporting a child in a closed environment - so were directly putting one or more persons in danger. And, in fact, used hospital resources in a remote area rather than London. They know this, which is why they have tried to cover up their actions.

No doubt there are professors all over the country conducting affairs against the advice, but only Neil Ferguson had to resign - because he was directly involved in advising on the policy implemented.

(darn, instead of typing that I could have just waited for, and agreed with PD)
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2317 on: May 28, 2020, 04:29:08 PM »
(darn, instead of typing that I could have just waited for, and agreed with PD)
Always the best policy ;)

And nope I've not been having an affair during the lock down. ::)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2318 on: May 28, 2020, 04:32:08 PM »
And, in fact, used hospital resources in a remote area rather than London. They know this, which is why they have tried to cover up their actions.
That is a very good point and one that hasn't been raised much.

Throughout the crisis there has been a lot of concern from more rural areas that allowing people to travel to self isolate from London and other major cities to the equivalent of second homes in rural areas would put their health-care systems under unnecessary and unmanageable strain.

Cummings did exactly that.


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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2321 on: May 28, 2020, 07:34:09 PM »
Although he wasn't hiding his actions or guilty of lying about what he did, this still raises awkward questions for Mr Blackford to answer and cuts away that moral high ground he is so fond of:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1288182/Ian-blackford-coronavirus-lockdown-snp-news-dominic-cummings-resign
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2322 on: May 28, 2020, 08:28:43 PM »
Although he wasn't hiding his actions or guilty of lying about what he did, this still raises awkward questions for Mr Blackford to answer and cuts away that moral high ground he is so fond of:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1288182/Ian-blackford-coronavirus-lockdown-snp-news-dominic-cummings-resign
He went home as instructed to do and had no symptoms or reason to think he had Covid 19. Missing the issue.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2323 on: May 28, 2020, 08:30:12 PM »
Who buys and uses fireworks to 'Clap for Carers'?

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #2324 on: May 28, 2020, 08:36:05 PM »
He went home as instructed to do and had no symptoms or reason to think he had Covid 19. Missing the issue.

Ok - I read it as him having adequate accom in London. But it is the Express!
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.