Coronavirus

[jeremyp]

I think this one of the biggest issues. The fact that the TV news presents at least 4 different sets of rules for the constituent parts of the UK is confusing enough. Then the govt. changes the instructions at regular intervals, and then add on the complexities of local and regional lockdowns it is no small wonder that the general population is confused as to what they are supposed to do.

The government has to change the rules at regular intervals. Not reacting to changes in the situation just because Trentvoyager gets confused is not a valid strategy. I suggest you read some of the government’s own publications instead of relying on the media to inform you. I mean that seriously: I was confused about the rule of six until I read the explanation on gov.uk.

[Aruntraveller]

The government has to change the rules at regular intervals. Not reacting to changes in the situation just because Trentvoyager gets confused is not a valid strategy. I suggest you read some of the government’s own publications instead of relying on the media to inform you. I mean that seriously: I was confused about the rule of six until I read the explanation on gov.uk.

Yes. Lets get all of us to look at gov.uk - such fun to watch it crash. You expect everyone to look it up, when there are perfectly valid means of communication available to inform virtually everyone via tv & radio.

Seriously?

[Gordon]

John Crace's take on Boris's attempts at leadership today.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/22/its-boristime-v-coronatime-and-theres-only-ever-one-winner

[Nearly Sane]

A new wrinkle

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/22/younger-women-bearing-brunt-of-second-wave-of-covid-in-uk?__twitter_impression=true

[Nearly Sane]

From May


https://youtu.be/sfrThV6DJu4

[jeremyp]

Yes. Lets get all of us to look at gov.uk - such fun to watch it crash.

Really? Is that your argument for not informing yourself? It's a static web page. It's not going to crash.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-meeting-with-others-safely-social-distancing/coronavirus-covid-19-meeting-with-others-safely-social-distancing

You expect everyone to look it up, when there are perfectly valid means of communication available to inform virtually everyone via tv & radio.

Boris Johnson was televised at lunchtime yesterday setting out the new rules in Parliament and then again at 8pm in the evening. Did you bother to watch either?

I agree that the media coverage can be quite confusing, but that's their fault, not that of the government.

Seriously?

Yes. Seriously.

[jeremyp]

John Crace's take on Boris's attempts at leadership today.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/22/its-boristime-v-coronatime-and-theres-only-ever-one-winner

What about your take? I assume you watched it.

[ProfessorDavey]

Really? Is that your argument for not informing yourself? It's a static web page. It's not going to crash.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-meeting-with-others-safely-social-distancing/coronavirus-covid-19-meeting-with-others-safely-social-distancing
Boris Johnson was televised at lunchtime yesterday setting out the new rules in Parliament and then again at 8pm in the evening. Did you bother to watch either?

I agree that the media coverage can be quite confusing, but that's their fault, not that of the government. Yes. Seriously.

I'm sorry Jeremy, but there are all sorts of areas where the message (and messaging) is a mess. Effectively 'headline' rules being brought in without thinking about the detail and all the questions that will arise.

So here is an example.

I (like millions of people) am a member of a choir. Through August and early September we worked diligently towards being able to return to live rehearsals. It took weeks for the DCMS to clarify whether this was, or was not, even possible, following the summer relaxation of rules. We'd got to the point of determining capacity with strict 2M social distancing, covid-safe rules etc.

Then the rule of six came in, without any clarity as to whether it applied to an organised indoor activity such as a choir. Our plans were thrown into confusion. Just a few days ago there was final conformation that we were exempt - in other words with appropriate measures we could have more than 6 people. Now there is confusion again with DCMS seemingly suggesting that the rules have changed (despite the fact that the new rules don't seem to impact on the basis rule of 6) and that we can only have 6 people attending (which of course is pointless).

That is the kind of problem we are facing. Government makes knee jerk changes, announced as headlines, but without thinking through the details.

[ProfessorDavey]

What about your take? I assume you watched it.

I watched it - guff, whaffle, inappropriate body language (all that weird fist-pumping stuff) and no clarity of message. At a time like this we need leadership, and we aren't getting it (or at least not in England).

And, of course, the strongest whiff of rank hypocrisy - a man telling us we had to obey the rules or there would be severe consequences, who completely exonerated his own special advisor when he breached his own guidance.

[jeremyp]

So here is an example.

I (like millions of people) am a member of a choir. Through August and early September we worked diligently towards being able to return to live rehearsals. It took weeks for the DCMS to clarify whether this was, or was not, even possible, following the summer relaxation of rules. We'd got to the point of determining capacity with strict 2M social distancing, covid-safe rules etc.

Then the rule of six came in, without any clarity as to whether it applied to an organised indoor activity such as a choir.

What do you mean? It says seven people cannot gather together. It means your choir is screwed.

Our plans were thrown into confusion. Just a few days ago there was final conformation that we were exempt

From whom did the confirmation come? Government guidelines are clear. You shouldn't have been allowed to go through with it.

[jeremyp]

I watched it - guff, whaffle, inappropriate body language (all that weird fist-pumping stuff) and no clarity of message. At a time like this we need leadership, and we aren't getting it (or at least not in England).

I watched it. The Churchillian rhetoric was misplaced. Actually, it reminded me of Jim Hacker, but I digress.

However, the message was pretty clear.

And, of course, the strongest whiff of rank hypocrisy - a man telling us we had to obey the rules or there would be severe consequences, who completely exonerated his own special advisor when he breached his own guidance.

Boo hoo. A government advisor got away with a slap on the wrist for a minor transgression, much like anybody else would. Maybe he should have been sacked, but he wasn't. Get over it.

[ProfessorDavey]

What do you mean? It says seven people cannot gather together. It means your choir is screwed.

There you go - for all your claim that the rules are simple/clear and you understand them, you've just proved you don't.

Seven people can gather together provided it isn't classified as a social gathering, is an organised activity with assessment of the risk and appropriate mitigation measures put in place. We had considered returning to our normal rehearsal venue, but as it isn't huge we'd only be able to have 24 singers, with strict 2M distancing. So we'd provisionally booked our local cathedral with much greater capacity at 2M distancing. All within the rules, once clarified last week by DCMS.

Or at least that was the clarification released by DCMS on 17th Sept (more than a week after the rule of six announcement). However it is now unclear whether the 17th Sept clarification remains the current position or not following this week's announcement.

[ProfessorDavey]

From whom did the confirmation come? Government guidelines are clear.

The Department of Culture, Media and Sport - i.e. the Government.

The point is that while the 'headline' might seem simply, the detail and its application to individual circumstances and situations is not. The government knows this yet doesn't do the leg work to release the detailed guidance at the same time as the headline - throwing all sorts of areas of our lives into unnecessary confusion.

You shouldn't have been allowed to go through with it.

But we are (or at least we were until yesterday, or maybe we still are) - because belatedly this is the government view or at least it was from 17th Sept to 22nd Sept - now, who knows.

[ProfessorDavey]

Boo hoo. A government advisor got away with a slap on the wrist for a minor transgression, much like anybody else would. Maybe he should have been sacked, but he wasn't. Get over it.

Others were sacked or resigned for lesser transgressions and they weren't the architect of the rules.

What you are missing is the corrosive effect this had, and continues to have, on trust in the government. This nosedived due to Cummings and hasn't come back. The perception of one rule for the elite and another for the little people is caustic.

Why does this matter - well because it is impossible to fully police and enforce the lockdown rules - they only work by consent, and consent only works if there is trust.

[Aruntraveller]

Boris Johnson was televised at lunchtime yesterday setting out the new rules in Parliament and then again at 8pm in the evening. Did you bother to watch either?

Yes I did. Why the badgering tone? Why must you start an argument in an empty room?

Anyway, it doesn't affect me/us directly as we are doing what we have done from the start of the pandemic. Staying isolated except for trips to Sainsburys and walks on the coast and South Downs. No visitors. No pubs. No restaurants. No needing to look at the gov.uk website currently. Of course there are some who won't bother to look at websites and take their lead from the confusing messaging from the media. Take it up with them.

I won't engage with you further on this thread as you just want to pick arguments with people who don't have your god-like propensity to understand this shambles of a governments messaging.

I find it a tad perplexing that you quite rightly (in my view) cut them no slack of the ongoing Brexit debacle, but on this it's all the publics fault for not understanding or having the sense to look at the gov.uk site. And of course not everyone has access to the internet. My friend Marian who is 88 years old and can't be bothered with the whole computer world. What about them Mr. Gov.UK?

[ProfessorDavey]

I won't engage with you further on this thread as you just want to pick arguments with people who don't have your god-like propensity to understand this shambles of a governments messaging.

Except Jeremy P clearly does not understand the rules by implying that live choir rehearsals involving more than 6 people were obviously banned under the rule of 6 (charmingly What do you mean? It says seven people cannot gather together. It means your choir is screwed.") when the government had clarified just last week quite the reverse - that organised choir rehearsals with more than 6 people were allowed provided the choir committee had performed risk assessment, put mitigations in place etc.

We await any further clarification from the DCMS as to whether this position has changed in light of yesterday's announcement.

[Nearly Sane]

I fear that a bigger lockdown will happen.


https://news.stv.tv/west-central/two-significant-coronavirus-clusters-at-university-of-glasgow?top&amp&__twitter_impression=true

[Nearly Sane]

Now that could have been trouble.

https://news.sky.com/story/greggs-factory-staff-test-positive-for-coronavirus-but-sausage-roll-supplies-unaffected-12079757

[jeremyp]

Others were sacked or resigned for lesser transgressions and they weren't the architect of the rules.

Yes, get over it.

What you are missing is the corrosive effect this had,

It's only corrosive because people let it be corrosive. It was months ago. Get over it.

[Nearly Sane]

I fear this is Nicola pushing for a complete shutdown of pubs and restaurants again, perhaps only for a specific period as in thd circuit break idea but I can see it leading to more closures, and I'm unconvinced that this is likely to work.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54274055

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, get over it.
It's only corrosive because people let it be corrosive. It was months ago. Get over it.

Yeah, people being lied to is only corrosive because they are bothered about being lied to, they just need to get over it. The people who lie have no responsibility for the effects of their lies.

[jeremyp]

Yes I did. Why the badgering tone? Why must you start an argument in an empty room?

You do not look at the situation as it is but as you think it ought to be. The government web site is useless because it's always crashing, for example. Except, no, that's bullshit. Criticise the government for the mistakes it actually makes, not the ones that only exist in your head.

Sometimes I think people here are enjoying watching Boris and his merry men floundering about.

[jeremyp]

Yeah, people being lied to is only corrosive because they are bothered about being lied to, they just need to get over it. The people who lie have no responsibility for the effects of their lies.

Yes we were lied to. We're all very sorry about that but it is going to make absolutely fuck all difference to anything that happens before the next general election.

Get over it. There are more pressing issues than Cummings' relatively minor breach of the lockdown rules.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes we were lied to. We're all very sorry about that but it is going to make absolutely fuck all difference to anything that happens before the next general election.

Get over it. There are more pressing issues than Cummings' relatively minor breach of the lockdown rules.

If you don't think trust should be affected by lying, ypu are a fool.

[Nearly Sane]

You do not look at the situation as it is but as you think it ought to be. The government web site is useless because it's always crashing, for example. Except, no, that's bullshit. Criticise the government for the mistakes it actually makes, not the ones that only exist in your head.

Sometimes I think people here are enjoying watching Boris and his merry men floundering about.

Just not willing to make excuses for them as you are.