Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 247891 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3100 on: September 24, 2020, 11:28:56 AM »
You do not look at the situation as it is but as you think it ought to be.
But you cannot simply discount the track record of the government in dealing with this. We are 6 months on from the original lock down (and about 8 months from a recognition that we had a major global problem), yet our testing system remains in chaos, we have literally only just launched an app (and we really don't know whether it work and even if it does in theory it is useless unless people can get tested and get results quickly). We have messaging that is all over the place and changing so regularly that it becomes difficult to understand and saps confidence.

Criticise the government for the mistakes it actually makes, not the ones that only exist in your head.
That's exactly what I am doing.

You on the other seems to be exonerating the government of any responsibility for how we got to this stage with your nonsense claim that the only relevant point is the situation as it is rather than as it should have been had we had competent leadership. You also disprove your own claim that the rules are simple by demonstrating that you yourself simply don't understand the rules.

SusanDoris

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3101 on: September 24, 2020, 03:43:59 PM »
It is no good entirely exonerating or entirely blaming the Government. It is I suppose possible that others, had they been elected, might just have made a few different, or worse, mistakes and we'll never know, but to heap blame for seemingly every dot and comma on the Government is simply unfair.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3102 on: September 24, 2020, 03:49:34 PM »
It is no good entirely exonerating or entirely blaming the Government. It is I suppose possible that others, had they been elected, might just have made a few different, or worse, mistakes and we'll never know, but to heap blame for seemingly every dot and comma on the Government is simply unfair.
Can you point out what criticisms you think are unfair and why?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3103 on: September 24, 2020, 03:58:28 PM »
I think that over the time of Covid 19, the Scottish govt has in general managed communication better than the UK Govt but beyond that I don't see a lot of difference in terms of actual policies and effects. There was the spoof article below in the Mash but it just illustrates how minor the actual difference in approach has been. The main one was the idiocy of encouraging people back to offices in England.


https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/amazing-man-can-see-week-into-englands-future-by-watching-scottish-news-20200826199827

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3104 on: September 24, 2020, 04:08:38 PM »
It is no good entirely exonerating or entirely blaming the Government. It is I suppose possible that others, had they been elected, might just have made a few different, or worse, mistakes and we'll never know, but to heap blame for seemingly every dot and comma on the Government is simply unfair.

Susan, with all due respect it's not every dot and comma. It's the big stuff like PPE, like discharging people back into care homes thus seeding the disease in a vulnerable population, it's being clear on your messaging, it's not pretending to be the Superman of capitalism, it's getting a decent test, track and trace operation up to speed. These are not dots and commas. These are the essentials. If they were getting these right, then I personally, probably would not be so annoyed that a government advisor drove to Barnard Castle to test his eyesight, but when they get the big things wrong the little things then start to really irritate.

I get mightily tired of some posters thinking that I am somehow quibbling over minor issues, I'm not. It's the big stuff the government got wrong and on current form I'm not seeing a huge improvement.

People died who need not have done. That is down, in part, to our government. Sorry/not sorry if that doesn't fit in with some people's world view.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 04:20:00 PM by Trentvoyager »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3105 on: September 24, 2020, 04:10:57 PM »
It is no good entirely exonerating or entirely blaming the Government. It is I suppose possible that others, had they been elected, might just have made a few different, or worse, mistakes and we'll never know, but to heap blame for seemingly every dot and comma on the Government is simply unfair.
I'm not doing that.

However I think Jeremy tends to the extreme of exoneration. He seems to dismiss anything that has happened over the past few months and only wants to consider the situation now and going forward. Thinking that we should not be in the position we are now (e.g. on testing, track & trace, app etc etc) and that the reason we are in the current position is down to poor government decisions is, to my mind, perfectly reasonable.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3106 on: September 24, 2020, 04:38:04 PM »
Susan, with all due respect it's not every dot and comma. It's the big stuff like PPE, like discharging people back into care homes thus seeding the disease in a vulnerable population, it's being clear on your messaging, it's not pretending to be the Superman of capitalism, it's getting a decent test, track and trace operation up to speed. These are not dots and commas. These are the essentials. If they were getting these right, then I personally, probably would not be so annoyed that a government advisor drove to Barnard Castle to test his eyesight, but when they get the big things wrong the little things then start to really irritate.

I get mightily tired of some posters thinking that I am somehow quibbling over minor issues, I'm not. It's the big stuff the government got wrong and on current form I'm not seeing a huge improvement.

People died who need not have done. That is down, in part, to our government. Sorry/not sorry if that doesn't fit in with some people's world view.
I agree

And I'll freely accept that there were some things that frankly any UK government would have struggled with - for example testing capacity back in March, because we simply didn't have anything in place historically (unlike some countries) and you can't simply conjure up test facilities from nothing in days.

But most of the issues I'm talking about were both predictable and predicted with sufficient time for the government to make the necessary changes and put things in place. Yet time and again they've ignored sensible expert advice and taken their own path, as if you win this not by getting things right (even if that is exactly the same as other countries), but by creating a bespoke UK solution.

Examples - PPE, e.g ventilators - rather than just buy existing designs, increase manufacturing capacity the UK felt the need to have a competition for completely new and untested designs.
Track and Trace app - other countries had this ages ago using the power of google/apple etc, but we refused to simply take the technology and use it in the UK - we had to have our own.
Testing - early on the government wouldn't trust and wouldn't use experts and facilities in universities - rather they had to set up their own mega- facilities (which took months) and guess what - they couldn't procure the equipment or consumables, so long after we'd offered to help they came begging to borrow our equipment, consumables and people ... but they had to go and work in Milton Keynes (in our case, despite our labs being in London).
Exam grades - for months the government were being told that the algorithm and adjustments would disadvantage kids own the poorest areas, but they didn't listen and when what was predicted happened they seemed bemused and ended up in knee jerk U turns (which themselves created huge problems and extra work for schools and universities).

Just a few examples, I'm afraid.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 04:47:50 PM by ProfessorDavey »

SusanDoris

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3107 on: September 24, 2020, 05:56:30 PM »
My thanks for above responses. Do any of you have reliable evidence and information that another set of people in the UK Government would have made far fewer mistakes?
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3108 on: September 24, 2020, 05:59:16 PM »
My thanks for above responses. Do any of you have reliable evidence and information that another set of people in the UK Government would have made far fewer mistakes?
Germany

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3109 on: September 24, 2020, 06:30:58 PM »
My thanks for above responses. Do any of you have reliable evidence and information that another set of people in the UK Government would have made far fewer mistakes?

Yes. I think if Mrs May had still been PM the outcome would have been different (that is better). She is not wedded to the ideals of libertarianism in the same way that Johnson is. His leanings in that direction have really not helped in dealing with this pandemic.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Gordon

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3110 on: September 24, 2020, 07:06:53 PM »
My thanks for above responses. Do any of you have reliable evidence and information that another set of people in the UK Government would have made far fewer mistakes?

A government sans Tories comes to mind, and perhaps with more competence and not lead by a narcissistic liar.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3111 on: September 24, 2020, 07:08:56 PM »
A government sans Tories comes to mind, and perhaps with more competence and not lead by a narcissistic liar.
or with less corruption - see Dido Harding

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3112 on: September 24, 2020, 07:51:40 PM »
or with less corruption - see Dido Harding
Or the other contracts given to Tory donors or supporter to provide PPE (ventilators and masks) that they had no prior experience in manufacturing/supplying.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3113 on: September 24, 2020, 10:35:45 PM »
But apart from the incompetence, the lying, the hypocrisy and the corruption, what have the Tories ever fucked up about Covid?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3114 on: September 25, 2020, 09:08:18 AM »
Students told not to go to pubs in Scotland.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-54285720

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3115 on: September 25, 2020, 09:12:32 AM »
In general with some specific criticisms, I think the UK govt has done ok as regards the employment support. There's going to be a lot of areas though where people can't bring staff back for 30% of the time though. Given the levels of borrowing, it may be difficult to do much more.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54282815
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 09:28:46 AM by Nearly Sane »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3116 on: September 25, 2020, 10:56:41 AM »
In general with some specific criticisms, I think the UK govt has done ok as regards the employment support.
I agree - I think the furlough scheme was really good - straight forward and, critically, it worked - employers got the money quickly and simply.

There's going to be a lot of areas though where people can't bring staff back for 30% of the time though.
True - I think the scheme just announced might not work well in terms of protecting jobs. On the radio the point was raised about the dilemma for an employer with reduced work - do you keep one employee on full time and make another redundant, or do you drop both to part time and take advantage of the government scheme. The problem is that that former is likely to cost the employer less and if that is the case many companies, through necessity, will make employees redundant rather than using the scheme.

Given the levels of borrowing, it may be difficult to do much more.
I think there is additional scope given that the cost of borrowing at the moment is historically low. I think the government knows this and recognises that more may need to be put in place - certainly if we go back to a more significant lock-down.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3117 on: September 25, 2020, 12:35:59 PM »
So in the latest in a long catalogues of failures the brand new app won't work on older smart phones.

I downloaded it yesterday and was OK, but had to upgrade my system software. But older phones won't be able to use the most recent system software and therefore won't be able to work with the app. :o

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3118 on: September 25, 2020, 12:48:46 PM »
So in the latest in a long catalogues of failures the brand new app won't work on older smart phones.

I downloaded it yesterday and was OK, but had to upgrade my system software. But older phones won't be able to use the most recent system software and therefore won't be able to work with the app. :o

Not the governments fault in this case, this applies to any country using the Apple/Google platform. This was pointed out by somebody on TV yesterday, Scottish health chappie.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3119 on: September 25, 2020, 04:58:46 PM »
Had a couple of restaurants send me emails that they are restarting their set meals that need some cooking at home again. They are anticipating both a drop off in trade and a lockdown.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3120 on: September 25, 2020, 06:16:50 PM »
Happy to wear mask, happy to be currently in quarantine for specific reasons, but we know much more about covid and we can see the effects of lockdown. We are over reacting and we are screwing up people.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3121 on: September 25, 2020, 10:42:22 PM »
We are over reacting and we are screwing up people.
Really?

Have you looked at the data - I think we haven't locked down hard enough nationwide. I think the rule of 6 and closing pubs a bit early isn't going to make meaningful impact on the exponential rise in cases, and now with a bit of a lag, hospitalisations and a little further back again, deaths following the trend of cases.

That said we will soon see all the local lock downs join up in a manner that meaning the whole of the UK will be in greater lockdown.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 11:40:08 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3122 on: September 26, 2020, 03:15:45 PM »
Happy to wear mask, happy to be currently in quarantine for specific reasons, but we know much more about covid and we can see the effects of lockdown. We are over reacting and we are screwing up people.

The government were forced into the first lockdown due to lack of preparedness for a pandemic. They did not take the opportunity, the time granted by the lockdown,  or just did not manage, to put in place the systems needed to manage infection when distancing measures could be eased; hence they are now being forced into a mish mash of other measures, some of them being quite useless as well as damaging.

The talk of a two week circuit-break shows they still do not understand the point of quarantining. 

This article by Sally Davies, on preparedness for coming pandemics, is good:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/26/next-pandemic-coronavirus-prepare
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3123 on: September 26, 2020, 04:31:47 PM »
The government were forced into the first lockdown due to lack of preparedness for a pandemic. They did not take the opportunity, the time granted by the lockdown,  or just did not manage, to put in place the systems needed to manage infection when distancing measures could be eased; hence they are now being forced into a mish mash of other measures, some of them being quite useless as well as damaging.

The talk of a two week circuit-break shows they still do not understand the point of quarantining. 

This article by Sally Davies, on preparedness for coming pandemics, is good:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/26/next-pandemic-coronavirus-prepare
I agree with most of that but it doesn't impact on my belief that the current piecemeal lockdowns are an overreaction.  The impacts and costs are not just financial, and in not learning to live with Covid we simply continue to ignore those costs.