Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 240445 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3250 on: October 15, 2020, 05:07:52 PM »
Jeremy - any response to my comments in reply 3238, specifically:

Why you think I have no idea how hard it is to make changes in government organisations.

It's obvious isn't it? You keep claiming that the government can make changes happen quickly. I've worked with HMRC, DWP, NHS and the Borders Agency (gone now). They all have masses of process that slow things down and they tend to have management/staff culture problems too which leads to huge inertia. It's virtually impossible for an agency like the NHS to do things quickly and when they do, they make mistakes. Actually, the mistakes would be OK if it weren't for the fact that the government tends to get pilloried for them.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3251 on: October 15, 2020, 07:16:58 PM »
The fact that they charge so much and people will pay seems like some evidence.
But given the corruption that you have already accepted, no.

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3252 on: October 16, 2020, 11:33:44 AM »
No. Evidence would be a functioning and efficient test, track and trace system.

You don't get to define what evidence is.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3253 on: October 16, 2020, 11:58:30 AM »
You don't get to define what evidence is.

Says the poster who offered a definiton of what evidence is:

Quote
The fact that they charge so much and people will pay seems like some evidence.

 ;D ;D
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3254 on: October 16, 2020, 01:27:33 PM »
A government driven by super-forecasting tech geniuses are spending £12B on systems that don't work?

YAY! KEEP CHUCKING THE CASH!

Well... someone has to pay my pension :)
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3256 on: October 18, 2020, 12:56:01 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3257 on: October 19, 2020, 01:13:00 PM »
Where Wales is going I fear we will soon follow

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54598136

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3258 on: October 19, 2020, 01:17:43 PM »
Says the poster who offered a definiton of what evidence is:

 ;D ;D

I didn't define evidence in that post. I offered some evidence.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3259 on: October 19, 2020, 01:20:43 PM »
I must now declare an interest. As of last Wednesday, I am contracted onto the NHS Digital COVID test and trace monitoring team.

We're not making £2,000 per day out of it though.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3260 on: October 19, 2020, 03:53:15 PM »
I didn't define evidence in that post. I offered some evidence.

Doesn't seem like evidence to me. Are there KPI's involved?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3261 on: October 19, 2020, 08:04:09 PM »
I must now declare an interest. As of last Wednesday, I am contracted onto the NHS Digital COVID test and trace monitoring team.

We're not making £2,000 per day out of it though.
(A) good for you. But (B) if a programme spends 12bn in 6 months and they screw up on Excel, and people in charge are being charged at 2Ok a week, then they are shite, the proframme is badly managed, and most of the 'cheaper' consultants are fucking up.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3262 on: October 19, 2020, 09:17:39 PM »
I heard a very moving call from a lady to LBC around 4.15pm today. She was stressed and in tears as she is in the holiday lets business in Wales. She said that there has been very little help for her industry as the help has gone to businesses paying rates and furloughing staff. She has lost thousands in income due to lockdown and social distancing rules and has been living on her savings and is about to lose her home as the mortgage holiday is over and the banks want money. She said she was educated, has worked all her life but the Covid help schemes the government are promoting either do not apply to her or are not giving her more than £79 a month to live on - pay her mortgage, bills etc. The isolation also seemed to be having a devastating effect on her during what is the worst time in her life economically - she could not get comfort by seeing relatives (parents, sisters) or her partner as he lived in another house and was struggling with his own business problems.

She wanted the government to end lockdown, preferring to take her chances of dying or falling sick to economic ruin and social isolation that she felt was as bad for her health as Covid-19. I had a lot of sympathy for her call. I have found it useful to not spend money on eating out etc but understand that a lot of people's livelihoods are built on us spending money on hospitality and leisure. I do not think there is any danger of the majority of people losing interest in spending their money on restaurants and bars - especially given the human need for social interaction. After hearing her call I have a better understanding of why some people are flouting the rules as the alternative to living in limbo in social isolation and facing economic ruin. She said the virus is part of Nature and it's here to stay and there is a limit to how effective we can be at fighting its population control.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3263 on: October 19, 2020, 09:30:01 PM »
I heard a very moving call from a lady to LBC around 4.15pm today. She was stressed and in tears as she is in the holiday lets business in Wales. She said that there has been very little help for her industry as the help has gone to businesses paying rates and furloughing staff. She has lost thousands in income due to lockdown and social distancing rules and has been living on her savings and is about to lose her home as the mortgage holiday is over and the banks want money. She said she was educated, has worked all her life but the Covid help schemes the government are promoting either do not apply to her or are not giving her more than £79 a month to live on - pay her mortgage, bills etc. The isolation also seemed to be having a devastating effect on her during what is the worst time in her life economically - she could not get comfort by seeing relatives (parents, sisters) or her partner as he lived in another house and was struggling with his own business problems.

She wanted the government to end lockdown, preferring to take her chances of dying or falling sick to economic ruin and social isolation that she felt was as bad for her health as Covid-19. I had a lot of sympathy for her call. I have found it useful to not spend money on eating out etc but understand that a lot of people's livelihoods are built on us spending money on hospitality and leisure. I do not think there is any danger of the majority of people losing interest in spending their money on restaurants and bars - especially given the human need for social interaction. After hearing her call I have a better understanding of why some people are flouting the rules as the alternative to living in limbo in social isolation and facing economic ruin. She said the virus is part of Nature and it's here to stay and there is a limit to how effective we can be at fighting its population control.
Is she happy to have  the NHS at capacity? For NHS staff to be in danger ? Did her comments help you out on that,?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 09:36:13 PM by Nearly Sane »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3264 on: October 19, 2020, 09:39:35 PM »
Is she happy to have  the NHS at capacity? For NHS sradf to be it in danger ? Did her comments help you out on that,?
She didn't say anything about the NHS but my impression was that she was putting her life and the lives of others in her position ahead of the lives of NHS staff. It seemed like she thought the price of lockdown was too high a price to pay so decided if she had to choose between her life and someone else's she chose her life. Is that surprising that some people would choose to preserve their own life over others', given the choice? I don't find that surprising. So yes I would say her comments did help me out in understanding her POV. It's always good to get more of an understanding of what motivates different human behaviour.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3265 on: October 19, 2020, 11:30:13 PM »
She didn't say anything about the NHS but my impression was that she was putting her life and the lives of others in her position ahead of the lives of NHS staff. It seemed like she thought the price of lockdown was too high a price to pay so decided if she had to choose between her life and someone else's she chose her life. Is that surprising that some people would choose to preserve their own life over others', given the choice? I don't find that surprising. So yes I would say her comments did help me out in understanding her POV. It's always good to get more of an understanding of what motivates different human behaviour.
Agree, it is worthwhile to listen to peoples' perspectives and experiences here but that doesn't make them right no matter how deeply felt. I think no matter what a govt chooses here it is in some sense damned but that does not mean a choices are equal, and in particular not all reactions are equal.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2020, 11:58:47 PM by Nearly Sane »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3266 on: October 20, 2020, 09:55:49 AM »
Agree, it is worthwhile to listen to peoples' perspectives and experiences here but that doesn't make them right no matter how deeply felt. I think no matter what a govt chooses here it is in some sense damned but that does not mean a choices are equal, and in particular not all reactions are equal.
Right is relative and depends on whose perspective you approach the issue from, especially when you are talking about survival. People who might not die from Covid-19 but might die from financial ruin or lack of access to cancer treatment will think it is right for them to take the risks involved in prioritising their life over the lives of others who might die from Covid-19.

There currently seems to be a difference of opinion over what is right and wrong and whose lives matter more with respect to Covid and lockdown. You favour protecting NHS staff and people vulnerable to Covid, while others prefer taking the risk of catching Covid and its long-term effects and the risk of others catching Covid over facing their own certain financial ruin or homelessness or long-term crippling depression or suicide or death from not being able to access medical care for health issues other than Covid.   
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Gordon

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3267 on: October 21, 2020, 06:25:42 AM »
Interesting article about government contracts surrounding the 'world beating' track and trace system.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/21/government-covid-contracts-britain-nhs-corporate-executives-test-and-trace

Gordon

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3268 on: October 21, 2020, 07:26:50 AM »
And another on the problems of test and trace: hard to decide how much is just centralised Tory incompetence/nepotism, and how much is plain corruption in handing out contracts to Tory cronies.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/21/liverpool-government-test-trace-britain-covid-19 

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3269 on: October 21, 2020, 11:02:08 AM »
Is she happy to have  the NHS at capacity? For NHS staff to be in danger ? Did her comments help you out on that,?
My feeling is that prioritizing the NHS over the economy risks creating a false sense that the NHS is responsible for peoples' health, rather than the individual him or herself. Let's not forget that a healthy economy may also lead to a more healthy nation.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3270 on: October 21, 2020, 11:10:49 AM »
Quote
Let's not forget that a healthy economy may also lead to a more healthy nation.
Modify message

You've got that arse about face.

Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3271 on: October 21, 2020, 11:26:29 AM »
You've got that arse about face.
So you think the country going into further debt will be a better long term outcome?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 11:29:15 AM by Spud »

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3272 on: October 21, 2020, 12:05:24 PM »
So you think the country going into further debt will be a better long term outcome?
Rad for comprehension. I never said that.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3273 on: October 21, 2020, 03:08:03 PM »
Rad for comprehension. I never said that.
Fair enough. What I would consider arse about face is people crossing the road to avoid others, or asking the shopkeeper to bring out some bananas to avoid entering the shop, both things I have seen since March. All apparently to protect the NHS

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #3274 on: October 21, 2020, 03:24:46 PM »
Fair enough. What I would consider arse about face is people crossing the road to avoid others, or asking the shopkeeper to bring out some bananas to avoid entering the shop, both things I have seen since March. All apparently to protect the NHS

And? I frequently cross the road to avoid others. It's not to protect the NHS it's to protect me and my partner who is in one of the higher risk groups (as per a letter from his GP).

If I don't think people are capable of keeping a required social distance then I am not going to take the risk of coming into close contact with them.

I am taking responsibility for my health and my partners health.

Is that a difficult concept for you? Is it a particular problem for you that I choose to cross the road?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.