Coronavirus

[Spud]

And? I frequently cross the road to avoid others. It's not to protect the NHS it's to protect me and my partner who is in one of the higher risk groups (as per a letter from his GP).

If I don't think people are capable of keeping a required social distance then I am not going to take the risk of coming into close contact with them.

I am taking responsibility for my health and my partners health.

Is that a difficult concept for you? Is it a particular problem for you that I choose to cross the road?

Is it not going a bit far though? What about the person you're avoiding, how does it make them feel?

I heard on the radio someone involved in trialing a vaccine saying they don't know how much virus is needed to infect someone - they give volunteers a bit at a time. How do you know what distance is required to avoid picking up enough microbes to infect you? I've heard that in Sweden the recommended distance is 1m.

[ProfessorDavey]

Is it not going a bit far though? What about the person you're avoiding, how does it make them feel?

That you are respecting social distancing in case either one of you might be infected.

I cross the road to respect social distancing too as do plenty of other people I encounter - it is just common courtesy in these difficult times.

[Spud]

That you are respecting social distancing in case either one of you might be infected.

I cross the road to respect social distancing too as do plenty of other people I encounter - it is just common courtesy in these difficult times.

Isn't it a bit ott though?

[Nearly Sane]

So no pubs and restaurants in the Central Belt for an extra week. And there is going to be a 5 tier system in Scotland. Can't help but feel this tier inflation is a bad idea.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54631004

[Aruntraveller]

Is it not going a bit far though? What about the person you're avoiding, how does it make them feel?

No it's not going a bit far. It is what I feel comfortable with. I can't control how other people feel about me crossing the road, but perhaps they are grateful that I am maintaining a respectful distance from them, because that is what it is. If they think it is something else, then that is their problem.

[ProfessorDavey]

Isn't it a bit ott though?

No - it is the new norm - you cannot respect 2M social distancing when passing someone coming the other way on a pavement that is less than 2M wide (which is most pavements). So to respect social distancing one or other of you needs to move further away - sometimes, where safe, that involves walking down the road rather than the pavement. Otherwise crossing over the road and walking on the other pavement.

Round my way it is just what happens all the time - I don't think anyone considers it OTT, they consider it polite and courteous.

[Maeght]

No - it is the new norm - you cannot respect 2M social distancing when passing someone coming the other way on a pavement that is less than 2M wide (which is most pavements). So to respect social distancing one or other of you needs to move further away - sometimes, where safe, that involves walking down the road rather than the pavement. Otherwise crossing over the road and walking on the other pavement.

Round my way it is just what happens all the time - I don't think anyone considers it OTT, they consider it polite and courteous.

Totally agree.

[Robbie]

So do I, it's common sense.

[SusanDoris]

Me too. Fortunately, I do not have to cross the road - my sweep stick is a long enough, white and noisy enough signal for other people to take appropriate action to distance us.

[Spud]

No it's not going a bit far. It is what I feel comfortable with.

That's understandable, everyone is different and if your immune system is suppressed you might be more vulnerable to the virus; I wear more layers than a lot of people, to avoid colds, and I get funny looks occasionally.

No - it is the new norm - you cannot respect 2M social distancing when passing someone coming the other way on a pavement that is less than 2M wide (which is most pavements). So to respect social distancing one or other of you needs to move further away - sometimes, where safe, that involves walking down the road rather than the pavement. Otherwise crossing over the road and walking on the other pavement.

Round my way it is just what happens all the time - I don't think anyone considers it OTT, they consider it polite and courteous.

I understand that in densely populated areas like Oxford Street there is a problem. What I'm talking about is round where I live where you might pass someone only occasionally, so all you have to do is not cough or breathe over them.

[ProfessorDavey]

I understand that in densely populated areas like Oxford Street there is a problem. What I'm talking about is round where I live where you might pass someone only occasionally

I have no idea where you live, but I'm not talking about Oxford St, but suburban Hertfordshire.

Frankly the density of people isn't the main issue - the main point is that we are supposed to respect social distancing and that isn't possible to two people passing each other on a standard pavement. So the sensible, safe and polite thing to do is for one of those people to move to the side - into the road if safe, or to the other side of the road.

... so all you have to do is not cough or breathe over them.

So do you hold your breath as you walk up to them and pass them? Do they do the same? If not you will each be breathing in the exhalation of the other at close distance and that is a risk. You reduce the risk by maintaining the 2M social distance.

[Aruntraveller]

That's understandable, everyone is different and if your immune system is suppressed you might be more vulnerable to the virus;

It is more than that though. The infection rate is currently going in the wrong direction. We all have a responsibility to try to avoid getting infected, for our own health our family and friends health and by extension the health of the nation.

One of the EASIEST ways to do this is to maintain social distancing. It's not an especially difficult thing for me to do. It would help the country out of the present problems if we all tried to do this as much as we are able, some people (like myself) are in a position where it is relatively easy to do, so I do it.

That hopefully helps to offset others who for a variety of reasons are having a much harder time of it due to crowded households, multi occupancy accommodation, the need to travel to work, student accommodation....the list is pretty much endless. We all have to do our bit, government interventions will only ever go part way to solving this issue.

So cover your face, wash your hands, and keep your distance. It's not rocket science.

And, oh yeah, don't be embarrassed or feel uncomfortable about either crossing the road or seeing someone cross the road. You never know that simple action just might save someone's life.

[ProfessorDavey]

That's understandable, everyone is different and if your immune system is suppressed you might be more vulnerable to the virus

And as you walk towards someone on a pavement how do you know their immune system isn't suppressed?

I think the best advice in terms of social interactions and distancing is firstly to assume you have the virus and are infectious (you could well be even without symptoms) and secondly to assume any person you are interacting with is particularly vulnerable (as you have no way of knowing).

If you follow that advice it becomes pretty clear why the sensible approach is to cross to the other side of the street to pass someone rather than passing them shoulder to shoulder on a single pavement.

Of course the big challenge with the new world of covid etiquette is when you are walking towards someone on a pavement and, as so often happens, you both make the move to walk in the road/on the other side of the road. What it the correct etiquette to determine who stays on the same pavement and who moves to the road/other pavement. That's where the nightmare begins

[Nearly Sane]

Will we know it's Christmas time at all?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54643340

[Spud]

And as you walk towards someone on a pavement how do you know their immune system isn't suppressed?

We have to take a risk. I'm not saying that people shouldn't avoid crowded areas. But a one-off interaction on the pavement is hardly going to make you breathe in enough virus to become infected, so long as you don't cough over each other. I've seen so much nutcasery that it's clear to me that the restrictions are way over the top. For example, a friend of mine who isn't well educated washed her hands so much that they became red, chapped and painful - because of Boris saying "Wash Your Hands". We have to strike a balance between hand-washing to remove the virus and not washing them for long enough to allow the skin to oil itself. That involves some degree of risk.

[ProfessorDavey]

We have to take a risk.

But it isn't you taking the risk, is it Spud. It is the other person taking the risk because of your behaviour.

But a one-off interaction on the pavement is hardly going to make you breathe in enough virus to become infected, so long as you don't cough over each other.

No it is perfectly possible to become infected through breathing in someone else's exhaled air at close quarters. That's why we socially distance - the further away you are the lower the concentration of virus in the exhaled air and the reduced risk of infection. And it is a power law, so twice the distance, four times reduction in viral concentration at least.

I've seen so much nutcasery that it's clear to me that the restrictions are way over the top. For example, a friend of mine who isn't well educated washed her hands so much that they became red, chapped and painful - because of Boris saying "Wash Your Hands".

Err - in which case learn to wash your hands properly and still wash them regularly rather than wash them less.

We have to strike a balance between hand-washing to remove the virus and not washing them for long enough to allow the skin to oil itself. That involves some degree of risk.

There is absolutely no reason why washing your hands regularly enough to remove virus should create skin issues, unless you have an underlying skin complaint.

[Spud]

But it isn't you taking the risk, is it Spud. It is the other person taking the risk because of your behaviour.
No it is perfectly possible to become infected through breathing in someone else's exhaled air at close quarters. That's why we socially distance - the further away you are the lower the concentration of virus in the exhaled air and the reduced risk of infection. And it is a power law, so twice the distance, four times reduction in viral concentration at least.
Err - in which case learn to wash your hands properly and still wash them regularly rather than wash them less.
There is absolutely no reason why washing your hands regularly enough to remove virus should create skin issues, unless you have an underlying skin complaint.

My sister came from abroad to stay with us for a week a few years ago and she had a cold. I interacted with her all week, but did not pick up the cold.
My philosophy is to accept that I might breathe in some virus from an infected person, but that I have the means of defending against the microbes once I pick them up. The first line of defense is sensory, where you feel an abnormal sensation in the nose, throat, eyes etc.
Once you sense that you may have picked up a virus you can do lots of things to ensure that it doesn't infect you. Open windows or go outside, so that you don't pick up too much. Stay worm, rinse the viruses out with toothpaste and water, clean up, wash dirty hankies, spit excess phlegm out. You can also improve lymphatic drainage by stretching neck muscles. Stay off the internet, as eyes are a route of infection.
I just feel that some of the behaviour I've seen, particularly at the outset of the pandemic, is irrational: Waitrose staff obsessively wiping basket handles (they've stopped that now), able-bodied men staying indoors since March due to living with an elderly parent, preachers in their online sermons saying how am I going to get the bin bags to the end of the drive.... etc. It reminds me of the proverb about the sluggard who won't go out because there might be a lion in the street.

[Maeght]

Any evidence to support your medical advice there Spud? Reducing inoculant is important but how does staying off the internet help? Flushing out with toothpaste?

[Aruntraveller]

Once you sense that you may have picked up a virus you can do lots of things to ensure that it doesn't infect you.

You've not really got the hang of viruses have you?

"Stay worm" is your only sensible advice here. (yes I realise it's a typo - but staying warm is not going to stop the virus. So let "stay worm" be your watchword - we're all worms now)

[SteveH]

You've not really got the hang of viruses have you?

He'll be telling us to drink bleach next.

[Spud]

Any evidence to support your medical advice there Spud? Reducing inoculant is important but how does staying off the internet help? Flushing out with toothpaste?

I have quite a lot to say about this, but I need to get it right, so will start at the beginning. The chap who founded the Osteopathic profession, Andrew Taylor Still, wrote that he first had the idea when, as a practicing doctor, he found that his headache subsided when he rested his head on a swing in the garden. He realized that there was a mechanical component to disease.

Fast-forward about 120 years: I had a stinker of a cold about 5 years ago. The streaming nose dried up at night, and only started again when I became active. So during the day I tried lying still on my back, and realized that as long as I didn't move my head, my nose would dry up and be fairly comfortable.

So having studied Osteopathy between 1992-96 (sadly no longer practicing) but not ever treated a virus, I thought, if you can reduce the symptoms of a cold in the above way, could you prevent the initial infection using the same principle?

When I feel the slightest symptoms of a cold I try to replicate that posture in some way, and I think it does help to prevent getting the full-blown infection.

So far I've only had one bad cold since that time, whereas I used to get one every year.

Since Covid 19 causes respiratory infection, like the common cold, I am interested in whether it can be prevented using a similar mechanical intervention.

[Maeght]

So the answer to my question is 'no'.

[Robbie]

I don't see the connection between putting head on swing to relieve headache and lying flat on back to reduce respiratory infection  . Respiratory infections are generally worse if you lie flat; mucus goes down the respiratory tract instead of coming out, collects, becomes stagnant and causes chest infections, very common in inactive people. They are generally encouraged to sit upright and let it come out. We're meant to cough and sneeze, it clears the mucous membranes. I'd rather put up with a runny nose for a short while than get pneumonia.

How do you work lying on your back? Don't answer that.

[Spud]

I don't see the connection between putting head on swing to relieve headache and lying flat on back to reduce respiratory infection  . Respiratory infections are generally worse if you lie flat; mucus goes down the respiratory tract instead of coming out, collects, becomes stagnant and causes chest infections, very common in inactive people. They are generally encouraged to sit upright and let it come out. We're meant to cough and sneeze, it clears the mucous membranes. I'd rather put up with a runny nose for a short while than get pneumonia.

How do you work lying on your back? Don't answer that.

Glad you wrote this. Yes, during a cold the nose produces huge quantities of fluid, which you can blow out through the nose or swallow, or, when you're asleep, it collects and causes problems.
During my gap year I worked as a care assistant, and came across something called a sputum pot. Patients with respiratory disease use these to cough up sputum at night. I know it sounds gross, but I thought I'd try spitting out the excess liquid and mucus at night when I thought I was getting a cold. It helps to stop the sore throat and cough that result from swallowing it, and also saves the skin and nasal epithelium from being damaged due to excessive nose blowing. This enables you to sleep better, too. You can even prevent a cold if you do it at the time when you feel one coming on.

Lying on your back becomes easier if you spit out the fluid produced by the nose. But the other thing is that if you keep the neck still, and I've found lying supine to be most effective, the nose doesn't produce so much fluid. As soon as you start straining the neck it starts again. I relate this to nerve irritation from neck joint dysfunction.

All I'm saying is that if you can get the neck to relax, symptoms from cold virus and headache can be relieved and even prevented.

[Spud]

Any evidence to support your medical advice there Spud? Reducing inoculant is important but how does staying off the internet help? Flushing out with toothpaste?

Brushing with toothpaste washes microbes out of the mouth. It also stimulates saliva production which enables remaining microbes to be swallowed.
Looking at computer screens causes eyestrain. It interferes with normal eye muscle function - in the days before computers, lights were used to illuminate things without pointing them in our faces.
Eye function is linked with head and neck function in general.