Coronavirus

[Maeght]

Brushing with toothpaste washes microbes out of the mouth. It also stimulates saliva production which enables remaining microbes to be swallowed.
Looking at computer screens causes eyestrain. It interferes with normal eye muscle function - in the days before computers, lights were used to illuminate things without pointing them in our faces.
Eye function is linked with head and neck function in general.

The main route by which the virus gets into us is via the naval cavity directly into the respiratory system. An amount may be present in the mouth but even if you could flush most of it out there is no evidence this would avoid infection. What do the eye muscles have to do with a respiratory infection?

[SusanDoris]

Spud

I'm astonished that a member of this forum would choose not to wear a mask and follow the safety directions. I think it is very selfish of you and I cannot think of any reason to condone such behaviour.

[Spud]

The main route by which the virus gets into us is via the naval cavity directly into the respiratory system.

[Nasal hair is] a filter for dust, pollen, spores, viruses and bacteria. Particles stick to the wet surface of your nose hairs, which prevents them from reaching your lungs and causing infection. Eventually you’ll either blow the nasties into a tissue, or swallow them, to be destroyed in your stomach.

reference
Given that our nasal passage is designed to keep viruses out, I would still say that crossing the road to pass someone is over the top, unless perhaps you or that person is singing or coughing.

[Spud]

Spud

I'm astonished that a member of this forum would choose not to wear a mask and follow the safety directions. I think it is very selfish of you and I cannot think of any reason to condone such behaviour.

Susan
i do wear a mask.

[Spud]

An amount may be present in the mouth but even if you could flush most of it out there is no evidence this would avoid infection.

Brushing with toothpaste is proven to reduce diseases including pneumonia.

[Maeght]

Brushing with toothpaste is proven to reduce diseases including pneumonia.

Evidence for a respiratory viral disease please. In fact any evidence would be interesting.

[Maeght]

reference
Given that our nasal passage is designed to keep viruses out, I would still say that crossing the road to pass someone is over the top, unless perhaps you or that person is singing or coughing.

The risk from passing close to someone outdoors is low but why do it when you can show respect to them by giving them space and avoid the risk ?

[Maeght]

Brushing with toothpaste is proven to reduce diseases including pneumonia.

This report talks about benefits of good oral hygiene related to hospital pneumonia resulting from bacteria in the mouth being carried into the lungs when using respirators.  Is that what you meant?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081211141842.htm#:~:text=The%20nurses%20found%20that%20if,by%20as%20much%20as%2050%25.&text=It's%20difficult%20to%20quantify%20the%20effects%20precisely%2C%20the%20researchers%20say.

[Spud]

Evidence for a respiratory viral disease please. In fact any evidence would be interesting.

I've given a link earlier in this thread with a list of diseases linked with poor dental hygiene. One is bacterial pneumonia, which is a complication of Covid 19.

What do the eye muscles have to do with a respiratory infection?

Simplistically, think of the difference in ease with which you can stand on one leg with your eyes open to with them closed. Or the way in which the eyes can fix on an object while turning the head.
Now imagine you develop poor posture from lack of exercise resulting from eye strain or retinal damage from screen light. This can make us more susceptible to respiratory infection.

[jeremyp]

(A) good for you. But (B) if a programme spends 12bn in 6 months and they screw up on Excel, and people in charge are being charged at 2Ok a week, then they are shite, the proframme is badly managed, and most of the 'cheaper' consultants are fucking up.

The Excel fiasco was not in the NHS-D part or the part run by Deloitte.

[jeremyp]

So do you hold your breath as you walk up to them and pass them? Do they do the same? If not you will each be breathing in the exhalation of the other at close distance and that is a risk. You reduce the risk by maintaining the 2M social distance.

Yes, I do. It wasn’t a conscious decision but I do find I hold my breath for the few moments I pass somebody in the street.

[ekim]

Yes, I do. It wasn’t a conscious decision but I do find I hold my breath for the few moments I pass somebody in the street.

I have no trouble in smelling the perfume or tobacco smoke from car's driver/passengers as it whisks by, even if none of the windows are open.  I often wonder if this is a source of viral infection.

[Maeght]

I've given a link earlier in this thread with a list of diseases linked with poor dental hygiene. One is bacterial pneumonia, which is a complication of Covid 19.
Simplistically, think of the difference in ease with which you can stand on one leg with your eyes open to with them closed. Or the way in which the eyes can fix on an object while turning the head.
Now imagine you develop poor posture from lack of exercise resulting from eye strain or retinal damage from screen light. This can make us more susceptible to respiratory infection.

I must have missed your link, but you are referring to bacterial causes if complications of Covid-19 treatment not about reducing the chances of catching Covid-19. You talk about posture etc then claim a link to respiratory diseases. Again I presume you are talking about pneumonia. Maybe you could clarify what you were actually claiming.

[ProfessorDavey]

The Excel fiasco was not in the NHS-D part or the part run by Deloitte.

Doesn't that merely demonstrate the fragmented and incoherent approach. Frankly it doesn't matter which part the failure exists in if is a single point of failure issue. If this doesn't work properly then the whole app-as-part-of-test-track-and-trace doesn't work.

It a bit like saying after a plane crash that it failure wasn't in the air conditioning part or the plane or the toilet part of the plane if the wings fell off.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes, I do. It wasn’t a conscious decision but I do find I hold my breath for the few moments I pass somebody in the street.

I suspect quite a few people do this - however the point remains that you (regardless of whether you are holding your breath) cannot know whether the person you are passing is also holding their breath. Hence better to put distance between the two of you if you can - which in most cases when passing someone on a pavement you are able to do by one person crossing the road or walking in the road for a few metres (if safe).

[Spud]

I must have missed your link, but you are referring to bacterial causes if complications of Covid-19 treatment not about reducing the chances of catching Covid-19.

"most toothpastes and mouthwashes contain detergents with anti-viral qualities, similar to those in hand sanitisers" - https://tinyurl.com/y6gx9sqj

You talk about posture etc then claim a link to respiratory diseases. Again I presume you are talking about pneumonia. Maybe you could clarify what you were actually claiming.

The osteopathic perspective is that the body has all it needs to fight disease (secretory cells and ciliated epithelium in the airways, for example) and that there is often a musculoskeletal component to disease. Muscles of the front of the neck and chest can become shortened due to poor posture, and that leads to changes in our breathing pattern. Some parts of the lungs don't get used for gas exchange, because they are not inflated during quiet breathing, and poor posture exacerbates this. The lungs are then more susceptible to infection. Cardiovascular exercise is good because it expands the lungs so that all parts of them are used. But also, breathing exercises and stretching exercises can help to avoid this, for example stretching the pectoral and scalene muscles. Just as stretching the hamstrings relieves tension through the patella (since the quads won't have to work so hard to pull against the tight hamstrings), and so relieve patellar pain, stretching thoracic and neck muscles makes breathing more efficient and can help prevent respiratory infection.

[SusanDoris]

"most toothpastes and mouthwashes contain detergents with anti-viral qualities, similar to those in hand sanitisers" - https://tinyurl.com/y6gx9sqj
The osteopathic perspective is that the body has all it needs to fight disease (secretory cells and ciliated epithelium in the airways, for example) and that there is often a musculoskeletal component to disease. Muscles of the front of the neck and chest can become shortened due to poor posture, and that leads to changes in our breathing pattern. Some parts of the lungs don't get used for gas exchange, because they are not inflated during quiet breathing, and poor posture exacerbates this. The lungs are then more susceptible to infection. Cardiovascular exercise is good because it expands the lungs so that all parts of them are used. But also, breathing exercises and stretching exercises can help to avoid this, for example stretching the pectoral and scalene muscles. Just as stretching the hamstrings relieves tension through the patella (since the quads won't have to work so hard to pull against the tight hamstrings), and so relieve patellar pain, stretching thoracic and neck muscles makes breathing more efficient and can help prevent respiratory infection.

I don't care how many ideas you may present about posture, etc etc, but you seem to be presenting them as if doing all that you recommend would overcome the rapid spread of the covid 19 and I think you should keep them for another time, not promote them in the way you are at this particular time.

[Nearly Sane]

I don't care how many ideas you may present about posture, etc etc, but you seem to be presenting them as if doing all that you recommend would overcome the rapid spread of the covid 19 and I think you should keep them for another time, not promote them in the way you are at this particular time.

I think asking people to not express their ideas because they might be dangerous just leads  to groupthink

[Maeght]

"most toothpastes and mouthwashes contain detergents with anti-viral qualities, similar to those in hand sanitisers" - https://tinyurl.com/y6gx9sqj
The osteopathic perspective is that the body has all it needs to fight disease (secretory cells and ciliated epithelium in the airways, for example) and that there is often a musculoskeletal component to disease. Muscles of the front of the neck and chest can become shortened due to poor posture, and that leads to changes in our breathing pattern. Some parts of the lungs don't get used for gas exchange, because they are not inflated during quiet breathing, and poor posture exacerbates this. The lungs are then more susceptible to infection. Cardiovascular exercise is good because it expands the lungs so that all parts of them are used. But also, breathing exercises and stretching exercises can help to avoid this, for example stretching the pectoral and scalene muscles. Just as stretching the hamstrings relieves tension through the patella (since the quads won't have to work so hard to pull against the tight hamstrings), and so relieve patellar pain, stretching thoracic and neck muscles makes breathing more efficient and can help prevent respiratory infection.

Your link contains claims that brushing your teeth could help re Covid-19 infection, but also contains the comment '“Whilst I cannot say for certain that there would be no effect whatsoever, I do not think it likely that teeth brushing would make that much difference,” he explained. “Firstly droplets can and do infect through the nose and can be inhaled directly to the back of the throat and deeper into the respiratory tract so any residual disinfection around the teeth is very unlikely to have much if any benefit." So not really great support for your suggestions.

Your claims re muscular skeletal influences may also be possible regarding general health and well being but there is no specific evidence of any effect regarding viral infection from Sars-Cov-2.

[Spud]

Your link contains claims that brushing your teeth could help re Covid-19 infection, but also contains the comment '“Whilst I cannot say for certain that there would be no effect whatsoever, I do not think it likely that teeth brushing would make that much difference,” he explained. “Firstly droplets can and do infect through the nose and can be inhaled directly to the back of the throat and deeper into the respiratory tract so any residual disinfection around the teeth is very unlikely to have much if any benefit." So not really great support for your suggestions.

Your claims re muscular skeletal influences may also be possible regarding general health and well being but there is no specific evidence of any effect regarding viral infection from Sars-Cov-2.

What the two medics say also goes for handwashing: what if you get some virus on your hands after washing them? They seem rather committed to anything as long as it's got evidence to prove it. I doubt they know much more about tooth brushing and its benefits than any other person, after all it's something we all do. Further, research has been done that showed mouthwash eliminated virus after three rinses (carried out in a beaker iirc).
That said, I agree that it is still basically at the 'it works for me' stage.

[ProfessorDavey]

They seem rather committed to anything as long as it's got evidence to prove it.

What on earth would you expect them to do. Surely there are three alternatives here:

1. There is evidence that something is effective - then promote it.

2. There is no evidence that something is effective because there has been research which has failed to find it effective - do not promote it

3. There is no evidence that something is effective because there hasn't been sufficient research yet. In which case do the research and if it is found to be effective move to 1 above, if not move to 2 above.

End of.

[Spud]

What on earth would you expect them to do.

Be a bit more positive! Not that it matters, everyone has access to tooth brushes and paste already.

[ProfessorDavey]

Be a bit more positive! Not that it matters, everyone has access to tooth brushes and paste already.

Why should medics/scientists be 'positive' about something (i.e. recommending it) unless there is evidence that it works. To do so without that evidence runs the risk of lulling people into a false sense of security if they adopt behaviour that won't protect them or worse potentially harming them.

The 'positive' thing to do if there isn't evidence is to go and get that evidence as to whether it works or not.

[ProfessorDavey]

Further, research has been done that showed mouthwash eliminated virus after three rinses (carried out in a beaker iirc).

Problem with this research is that it was carried out in the idealised environment of a petri dish (with guaranteed 100% contact between virus and reagent, not the non-idealised environment of a real mouth. The other big flaw is that the key entry point for the virus seems to be certain types of nasal cell - ie. the nose, not the mouth.

That said, I agree that it is still basically at the 'it works for me' stage.

There isn't such a thing as the 'it works for me stage' something either works or it doesn't - thinking you'd like it to work just cos you like the idea is merely the placebo effect.

[SusanDoris]

I was just wondering … does anyone have an idea of, vaguely, how many people have had the virus one way or another since the beginning of the year. If every single person from youngest to oldest was tested today, what, vaguely, would the total be, and that would be including the number who have died? This may be an impossible question, but I ask it in case someone has an idea.