Coronavirus

[Spud]

If we had done nothing about COVID19, maybe the worst would be over now but so would the lives of hundreds of millions of people.

I agree, but because I believe we are created with adequate repair mechanisms I don't think vaccines are the only answer, especially for those who are healthy. The idea that the whole world should be vaccinated seems very sinister to me.

[SteveH]

I agree, but because I believe we are created with adequate repair mechanisms I don't think vaccines are the only answer, especially for those who are healthy. The idea that the whole world should be vaccinated seems very sinister to me.

What is really sinister is people endangering millions by arguing against science.

[Nearly Sane]

Should I Stay Or Should I Go

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57158372

[Nearly Sane]

And not getting into the pub anytime soon here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57189500

[ad_orientem]

I agree, but because I believe we are created with adequate repair mechanisms I don't think vaccines are the only answer, especially for those who are healthy. The idea that the whole world should be vaccinated seems very sinister to me.

Eh?

[Harrowby Hall]

I agree, but because I believe we are created with adequate repair mechanisms I don't think vaccines are the only answer, especially for those who are healthy. The idea that the whole world should be vaccinated seems very sinister to me.

Do you have any idea of what a vaccine is?

[Spud]

What is really sinister is people endangering millions by arguing against science.

The UK number of new infections dropped to very low levels once the first four priority categories had been vaccinated. This made me think that it wasn't necessary for everyone to be done.

[Spud]

Since genomic sequencing wasn't actually a thing in 1918, one has to wonder how he knows how many variants there were. Also, 50 million people died (according to the CDC).

I really don't see how this makes the slightest bit of sense. The vaccine is designed to stimulate the an immune response in the same way as getting the decease does. I don't see how this sort of thing can be usefully discussed (unless we have any well informed virologists here). I'm not an expert so I'd rather go with what they say rather than some maverick vet.

We also know, from extensive experience, that vaccines are effective.

I've found the bit where he explains how the innate immune system might be inhibited by vaccine-induced antibodies that can no longer neutralise the virus. Go to 9:08 here:
https://youtu.be/2dX_Cr7lh-g
Whether he's right, I don't know.

[ad_orientem]

I've found the bit where he explains how the innate immune system might be inhibited by vaccine-induced antibodies that can no longer neutralise the virus. Go to 9:08 here:
https://youtu.be/2dX_Cr7lh-g
Whether he's right, I don't know.

He's not. It shows he knows nothing of the immune system or vaccines. He clearly confuses over use of antibiotics with mass vaccination (which is basically his argument) but the two aren't comparable because they work in completely different ways.

[Spud]

He's not. It shows he knows nothing of the immune system or vaccines. He clearly confuses over use of antibiotics with mass vaccination (which is basically his argument) but the two aren't comparable because they work in completely different ways.

I'm not sure which part of the interview you got that from. About 6 minutes after the end of the above section, Bret Weinstein compares Geert's theory with not completing a course of antibiotics (because you feel better before you've completely eliminated the bacteria) thus the remaining bacteria which were most resistant to the antibiotic will regenerate.
That seems comparable with vaccine-induced viral resistance to me.
However, I'm not sure he is right that there is a correlation between vaccination during this pandemic and the emergence of the more vaccine-resistant strains. Yet. It might be that lockdown has led to induced resistance, though and could be correlated with emerging strains. Eg the Kent variant emerged after the UK lockdown last year.

[Aruntraveller]

However, I'm not sure he is right that there is a correlation between vaccination during this pandemic and the emergence of the more vaccine-resistant strains. Yet. It might be that lockdown has led to induced resistance, though and could be correlated with emerging strains. Eg the Kent variant emerged after the UK lockdown last year.

There is no correlation between vaccination and new variants. There is a correlation between the emergence of new variants and allowing the vaccine to spread and multiply. Hence countries that allowed the virus to spread more freely saw variants arise. The UK, South Africa Brazil and India. And remember no vaccinations had taken place when the Kent variant emerged.

The more virus in general circulation the more chance of mutations. This is not new.

[ad_orientem]

He's a quack! The variants appeared before any mass vaccinations.

[Spud]

Had a look at some dates. Brazilian, South African and Kent variants emerged Dec 2020. Indian emerged October (but did not cause immediate surge). So these all emerged after the peak of the first waves, when selection pressure from naturally produced antibodies and lockdown measures would have led to mutant strains being selected for and becoming dominant.
The point being, lockdown may help induce resistance. Too early to know if vaccination does too.

[Nearly Sane]

Had a look at some dates. Brazilian, South African and Kent variants emerged Dec 2020. Indian emerged October (but did not cause immediate surge). So these all emerged after the peak of the first waves, when selection pressure from naturally produced antibodies and lockdown measures would have led to mutant strains being selected for and becoming dominant.
The point being, lockdown may help induce resistance. Too early to know if vaccination does too.

Drivel.

[Spud]

Drivel.

Rude

[Nearly Sane]

Rude

Perhaps, but nonetheless accurate.

[Gordon]

Rude

Well I thought NS was being quite restrained, given the idiocy that you posted.

[Spud]

Well I thought NS was being quite restrained, given the idiocy that you posted.

It was a response to the claim that there is no correlation between variants and vaccines. None is apparent yet, but there seems to be a correlation between variants and human pressure on the virus in the form of lock down. (I'm not saying lock down is bad). If you think there isn't, say so.

[Spud]

Perhaps, but nonetheless accurate.

My main concern is the claim that everybody should be vaccinated. I'm not against the older population taking it, since the innate immune system depletes with age, and it can save many lives. But the Belgian vet has raised concern that the vaccine could interfere with the innate immune system's ability to neutralize future virus strains, so that people who would  have been able to neutralize them without vaccination (eg young adults) will then become dependent on vaccines. If you understand the biology, feel free to say I'm talking rubbish. The innate immune system is what fights off the flu after a few days - without antibodies.

[ProfessorDavey]

Had a look at some dates. Brazilian, South African and Kent variants emerged Dec 2020.

Nonsense - the Kent variant emerged way earlier than that. The Kent variant was first isolated and sequenced in September - it was first designated a variant of concern in Dec, but it had been around for months by them.

[ProfessorDavey]

If you understand the biology, feel free to say I'm talking rubbish.

I am a professional scientist working in the field of cell biology. Spud, you are talking rubbish.

[ad_orientem]

My main concern is the claim that everybody should be vaccinated. I'm not against the older population taking it, since the innate immune system depletes with age, and it can save many lives. But the Belgian vet has raised concern that the vaccine could interfere with the innate immune system's ability to neutralize future virus strains, so that people who would  have been able to neutralize them without vaccination (eg young adults) will then become dependent on vaccines. If you understand the biology, feel free to say I'm talking rubbish. The innate immune system is what fights off the flu after a few days - without antibodies.

Vaccines have nothing to with innate immune system. Vaccines teach the adaptive immune system to fight off viruses.

[SteveH]

I am a professional scientist working in the field of cell biology. Spud, you are talking rubbish.

I don't doubt that he is, but it'd be more helpful if you explained why.

[Spud]

Vaccines have nothing to with innate immune system. Vaccines teach the adaptive immune system to fight off viruses.

I am a professional scientist working in the field of cell biology. Spud, you are talking rubbish.

Okay, so a simple question: if young people use their innate immune system (which depletes with age) to neutralize coronavirus, why do they need to be vaccinated?

[Gordon]

Okay, so a simple question: if young people use their innate immune system (which depletes with age) to neutralize coronavirus, why do they need to be vaccinated?

Spud

Why do you think it is that 'flu' vaccines can be offered to susceptible people on an annual basis?