Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 246042 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4775 on: December 08, 2021, 09:23:27 AM »
Ad_O and Prof Davey,

What about flu. Do we vaccinate everyone to protect immunosuppressed people who can't be vaccinated?
Flu isn't as dangerous as covid ... by a long way.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4776 on: December 08, 2021, 09:39:18 AM »
The magnificent Susie Dent

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4777 on: December 08, 2021, 09:41:59 AM »
Ad_O and Prof Davey,

What about flu. Do we vaccinate everyone to protect immunosuppressed people who can't be vaccinated?

You are making the mistake of assuming equivalence. Flu and Covid 19 are not equivalent:

http://www.health.org.uk/publications/long-reads/one-year-on-three-myths-about-COVID-19-that-the-data-proved-wrong?

The risk from Covid to all of us is significantly higher than from flu, so different measures are appropriate. We are just arguing over what those measures should be.

Comparisons with flu are just distraction and deflection.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4778 on: December 08, 2021, 09:51:16 AM »
Nope they are different.
Now you are moving the goalposts. You previously said they are completely different. I suppose it is the closest we'll ever get to you conceding the point.
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4779 on: December 08, 2021, 09:57:43 AM »
One of my colleagues at work had the misfortune to be in South Africa when it got red listed. He is now incarcerated in HMP Edinburgh Airport Holiday Inn Express.

What I find interesting is that it is costing him about £200 a night, which, in most parts of the UK (perhaps not Edinburgh) will get you a reasonably nice room and reasonably good food. The food they are being provided could be described as adequate but that would be a lie. They are relying on food parcels.

Somebody here is making a big fat profit out of this. I wonder who.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4780 on: December 08, 2021, 10:11:14 AM »
One of my colleagues at work had the misfortune to be in South Africa when it got red listed. He is now incarcerated in HMP Edinburgh Airport Holiday Inn Express.

What I find interesting is that it is costing him about £200 a night, which, in most parts of the UK (perhaps not Edinburgh) will get you a reasonably nice room and reasonably good food. The food they are being provided could be described as adequate but that would be a lie. They are relying on food parcels.

Somebody here is making a big fat profit out of this. I wonder who.
You can get a room at the Holiday Inn just along from the airport at the zoo tonight for £116

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4781 on: December 08, 2021, 10:15:31 AM »
Now you are moving the goalposts. You previously said they are completely different. I suppose it is the closest we'll ever get to you conceding the point.
Ok - I will reiterate - they are completely different.

A non blood donor poses no risk to anyone and donating blood does not mitigate that risk, as there is no risk. A non vaccinated person potentially does pose a serious risk to other people in the population and being vaccinated does mitigate that risk as there is a risk.

They are completely different issues. And yes vaccination against a serious infectious disease is a public health issue and blood donation is not a public health issue - go check on the definition of public health.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 10:18:10 AM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4782 on: December 08, 2021, 10:16:51 AM »
You are making the mistake of assuming equivalence. Flu and Covid 19 are not equivalent:

http://www.health.org.uk/publications/long-reads/one-year-on-three-myths-about-COVID-19-that-the-data-proved-wrong?

The risk from Covid to all of us is significantly higher than from flu, so different measures are appropriate. We are just arguing over what those measures should be.

Comparisons with flu are just distraction and deflection.
Yup and I was also going to post that link.

In terms of years lost through death covid is about six times more deadly than flu.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 10:29:28 AM by ProfessorDavey »

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4783 on: December 08, 2021, 10:35:48 AM »
Ok - I will reiterate - they are completely different.
And I pointed out two ways in which they are the same. Therefore your assertion is incorrect.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4784 on: December 08, 2021, 10:45:39 AM »
And I pointed out two ways in which they are the same. Therefore your assertion is incorrect.
How can they be similar.

A blood donor may help someone with a pre-existing medical issue - they aren't the cause of that issue.

A non vaccinated person who infects others is the cause of those people's medical issue.

They are entirely different.

The only similarity is that they relate to medical issues (but then so do all sorts of things) - other than that they are completely different and indeed diametrically opposite - one is about creating a risk to others, the other is about creating a solution to a pre-existing risk or medical problem.

ad_orientem

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4785 on: December 08, 2021, 11:32:35 AM »
But it doesn't does it - it doesn't apply equally to people who are vulnerable through no fault of their own. In order to support those people then if people who refuse vaccines find that reopening of society doesn't apply equally to them, then so be it - their look-out and their choice.

I don't disagree that this is a problem but the pandemic has gone on for nearly two years now. We're all getting tired of it. I think we need to learn to live with this now. We have a vaccine which is effective and which can be modified, much like we do with influenza.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4786 on: December 08, 2021, 11:55:23 AM »
I don't disagree that this is a problem but the pandemic has gone on for nearly two years now. We're all getting tired of it. I think we need to learn to live with this now. We have a vaccine which is effective and which can be modified, much like we do with influenza.
I agree - and that's why we need to go a little further to encourage people to get vaccinated.

We need to have higher vaccination levels that are regularly boosted with a vaccine that might be adapted to a new variant. Only if we do that can we get back to near normality. And the road block to that are those selfish people who refuse to be vaccinated. I'm not really in favour of making it unlawful not to be vaccinated, and I'm not sure that would work. But I see no reason why people who selfishly refuse to protect others by getting vaccinated should be able to live their lives in exactly the same manner as those who have taken the responsible approach to mitigating risk by getting vaccinated.

And frankly I care more about the 'rights' of those who are vulnerable to be able to live a near normal life than the rights of those that refuse vaccines and are therefore part of the problem.

SteveH

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4787 on: December 08, 2021, 12:21:05 PM »
I can't agree with you I'm afraid. What if someone demanded that you give blood and fined you £100 a month if you didn't? A fundamental principal of medicine is patient autonomy.
What a bloody stupid analogy. One is not endangering other people by not giving blood.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 12:23:17 PM by Steve H »
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jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4788 on: December 08, 2021, 12:28:35 PM »
How can they be similar.
I was refuting your claim that they are completely different, not making any claim about their similarity.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4789 on: December 08, 2021, 01:03:01 PM »
... not making any claim about their similarity.
Really, and there was me thinking that your previous posts were a claim of similarly, e.g. reply 4378:

And I pointed out two ways in which they are the same.

And reply 4762

I gave you two aspects in which it isa the same.

Which both relate to your first intervention on the matter (reply 4760).

Perhaps you'd like to explain the difference between a claim that things are similar and a claim that things are the same.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4790 on: December 08, 2021, 01:23:47 PM »
What a bloody stupid analogy. One is not endangering other people by not giving blood.
Quite - someone not giving blood isn't directly causally responsible for someone else becoming ill. Someone not being vaccinated and then infecting someone else is a direct causal for that person becoming ill. The two are entirely different.

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4791 on: December 08, 2021, 02:14:21 PM »
That's true - but that shouldn't remove an obligation to be vaccinated, because immunity, whether natural or through vaccination doesn't last forever.
As I understand it, most peoples' immune system has some natural (innate) antibodies and NK cells. Higher quantities when young. These can prevent symptomatic infection, and are as effective if not more so than vaccine-induced adaptive antibodies and T cells. What I think may be missing from this debate is the ability of a person to utilize his innate immunity. Assuming the memory B-cells from which the innate antibodies arise (google B1 memory cells) hang out in the lymph nodes, there will be problems if someone has poor lymph drainage, for example from the head and neck, or the chest, because that person won't be able to utilize his full quota of innate immunity.
So just as one person might rely on repeated booster shots to give lasting immunity, another person, who might do yoga stretches daily or have regular massages, might be repeatedly exposed to the virus but his innate immune system is healthy enough to deal with it each time.
Also, if a person becomes symptomatically sick and recovers, they will usually develop memory cells which, on re-exposure years down the line, can then produce large quantities of specific antibodies in a short time, thus reducing disease severity.
So there is no need to force everyone to be vaccinated.

And there are other factors that influence whether or not exposure leads to infection. Poor dental hygiene for example has been linked with increased severity of Covid illness. Then there are things such as poor diet, and chronic stress, which lead to suppression of the immune system.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 02:23:10 PM by Spud »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4792 on: December 08, 2021, 02:29:09 PM »
As I understand it, most peoples' immune system has some natural (innate) antibodies and NK cells. Higher quantities when young. These can prevent symptomatic infection, and are as effective if not more so than vaccine-induced adaptive antibodies and T cells. What I think may be missing from this debate is the ability of a person to utilize his innate immunity. Assuming the memory B-cells from which the innate antibodies arise (google B1 memory cells) hang out in the lymph nodes, there will be problems if someone has poor lymph drainage, for example from the head and neck, or the chest, because that person won't be able to utilize his full quota of innate immunity.
So just as one person might rely on repeated booster shots to give lasting immunity, another person, who might do yoga stretches daily or have regular massages, might be repeatedly exposed to the virus but his innate immune system is healthy enough to deal with it each time.
Also, if a person becomes symptomatically sick and recovers, they will usually develop memory cells which, on re-exposure years down the line, can then produce large quantities of specific antibodies in a short time, thus reducing disease severity.
So there is no need to force everyone to be vaccinated.

And there are other factors that influence whether or not exposure leads to infection. Poor dental hygiene for example has been linked with increased severity of Covid illness. Then there are things such as poor diet, and chronic stress, which lead to suppression of the immune system.
You are just repeating yourself Spud, and your arguments are no more compelling than they were previously.

One of the major points about vaccination is that it ensures that when someone is exposed to the virus that their immune system is already primed. This has a number of benefits.

First, of course, it makes the infection likely to be less serious, so less chance of hospitalisation and death.

But also it make it more difficult for the virus to replicate and reduces viral shedding and therefore the likelihood for others to become infected.

Thirdly with less infection and less serious infection there is a reduction in the number of viral replication events, each of which may result in a mutation. The fewer mutations the less likelihood of a new variant of concern arising that may evade immunity (whether natural or vaccine-induced).

In every respect vaccination is good and more vaccination is better.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4793 on: December 08, 2021, 04:13:17 PM »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4794 on: December 08, 2021, 04:15:04 PM »
And Stratton is gone. Good.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59584736
And yet the lying incompetent racist thug PM remains.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4795 on: December 08, 2021, 04:19:02 PM »
And yet the lying incompetent racist thug PM remains.

I can only echo Ant & Dec (who have shot up in my estimation): "For Now"
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Gordon

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4796 on: December 08, 2021, 06:00:04 PM »
I'm trying to look on the bright side: with any luck Boris the Liar will end up destroying his party, and I'll be happy to dance on it's grave.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4797 on: December 08, 2021, 09:05:11 PM »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4798 on: December 08, 2021, 09:15:01 PM »
Cold War Steve

jeremyp

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #4799 on: December 09, 2021, 12:52:30 PM »
Really, and there was me thinking that your previous posts were a claim of similarly, e.g. reply 4378:
Saying two things are not completely different is not the same as saying they are similar. It's a difference of degree. I found a couple of characteristics they have in common, which refutes your claim that they are completely different. I'm refuting your claim, not making a claim of my own, and even if I were and my claim turned out to be false, it would not alter the fact that your claim is refuted.
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