Author Topic: Coronavirus  (Read 245573 times)

Dicky Underpants

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"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Maeght

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5076 on: June 03, 2022, 07:47:30 PM »

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5077 on: June 03, 2022, 09:38:20 PM »
I saw that one but didn't post it as it is pre Omicron isn't it, and it seems Spud is most concerned about Omicron causing ADE - I think?
Yup, I only noticed the date afterwards. However, I think my previous link, though not right up to date, deals with the bigger picture in fairly convincing detail.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5078 on: June 04, 2022, 11:47:33 AM »
Spud

Please note what the following article says about the immunological function of the T cells and the Fc receptors in particular. The article doesn't seem to deny the possible truth of the phenomenon to which you're drawing attention, but points out that this is far from the whole story.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20220103/Omicron-spike-specific-binding-antibodies-attenuate-disease-despite-increasing-transmission.aspx&ved=2ahUKEwiC7dbrwJH4AhV-QEEAHe_JDboQFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2kkmHfbMxV9zOfdCTyQkoR
Thanks for that, very interesting, although I thought this bit in bold doesn't make sense:
"Both vaccine-induced neutralizing antibodies and monoclonal therapies have gradually lost neutralization potency against developing variants of concern (VOCs). This is largely because many of the strong neutralizing antibodies attach to the RBD in an effort to disrupt or prevent interactions with ACE2. This loss of neutralization, combined with increased ACE2-binding, is responsible for the global increase in transmission events."

Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5079 on: June 04, 2022, 11:50:07 AM »
...
So the thrust of the message is that vaccination against omicron is leading to antibody-dependant enhancement of infection (not disease).

ADEs have been recognised as a possibility from the start of vaccine development, based on experience with SARS, MERS and other viruses. So the vaccines in use have been designed to minimise the risks  and for the known variants there is no indication that ADE is increasing spread or severity. Obviously as each new variant emerges the vaccines in use are checked against them and tested to make sure differences do not cause additional problems and that they are still effective enough to keep using.

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The prediction made based on the continued high circulation of the virus is that high immune pressure is now being placed on the virulence of the virus. To explain: the non-neutralizing antibodies, while enhancing infection, also prevent severe systemic disease, for example in the lung, where they suppress trans-infection of alveolar cells.
The virus needs to increase the severity of disease in order to transmit itself better in this environment of high immune pressure. So mutation that can enable a greater level of infection in the lower respiratory tract will over time be selected for, as long as the infection rate remains high.
This would lead to a severe wave of mortality.

This is a repetition of your continued misunderstanding or misstatement of/on the emergence and spread of new variants. Although it is feasible that variants with higher infectivity and severity will emerge, study of the variants that have emerged and their spread, severity and interaction with the existing vaccines must inform us prior to blatant scaremongering.
 
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It seems to me that this theory depends on interpreting the available data to mean that infection rates are higher in vaccinated people.
...
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Udayana

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5080 on: June 04, 2022, 11:54:33 AM »
Prefacing everything with the acknowledgement that I am not an expert ........

Same for all of us I think ... unless actually working on the vaccines or epidemiology.

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From what I have read, yes, what you describe is possible but it is/has been watched out for an not seen yet according to the experts. I have also read that the consequences of ADE are acute & dramatically and kills quickly and this has not been seen (this was on a website which required registration to read in full and I only got a greyed out 'glimpse' but that is what was clearly said.

This is interesting https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/all.15264

I would add "potentially" ...

Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5081 on: June 04, 2022, 11:55:09 AM »
I saw that one but didn't post it as it is pre Omicron isn't it, and it seems Spud is most concerned about Omicron causing ADE - I think?
And it's talking about enhancement of disease, whereas with Omicron we seem to be seeing enhancement of infection coupled with attenuated disease.

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5082 on: June 04, 2022, 12:01:49 PM »
ADEs have been recognised as a possibility from the start of vaccine development, based on experience with SARS, MERS and other viruses. So the vaccines in use have been designed to minimise the risks  and for the known variants there is no indication that ADE is increasing spread or severity. Obviously as each new variant emerges the vaccines in use are checked against them and tested to make sure differences do not cause additional problems and that they are still effective enough to keep using.

This is a repetition of your continued misunderstanding or misstatement of/on the emergence and spread of new variants. Although it is feasible that variants with higher infectivity and severity will emerge, study of the variants that have emerged and their spread, severity and interaction with the existing vaccines must inform us prior to blatant scaremongering.
I would emphasize that ADE normally refers to disease. but in this case it is infection that appears to be enhanced coupled with attenuated disease. Note also that this could also be a feature of immunity induced by natural infection. The question is do we want to add to the latter through mass vaccination? If we do we continue to add to the evolutionary pressure on the virus, in particular on its virulence (according to Geert).

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5083 on: June 04, 2022, 12:10:32 PM »
This study from May 2021 details the mechanics of enhancement of infection by certain infection-induced antibodies.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2022, 12:14:18 PM by Spud »

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5084 on: June 06, 2022, 01:47:08 PM »
In that they could both kill or cause life-long disablement, they are very much the same kettle of fish. Insofar as the research done was largely hit and miss and based on anecdote and some small amount of empirical experience with smallpox, the medics of the time were way behind the vast researches of modern medicine into the various types of corona virus. It was this research the world-wide medical experts drew as a basis of their development of Covid19 vaccines (whereas with smallpox before Jenner, they even tried inoculation with live smallpox on occasion). There is a difference in that vaccination against smallpox and polio conferred longer immunity than vaccines against Covid19, but the basic principle is the same.
The fact that occasional side-effects have been noted with Covid19 vaccines does little to counter the arguments that such vaccines largely prevent serious illness, lifelong disablement or death (in potentially millions of people) from the virus and its variants.
I don't quite understand what you're afraid of, unless you've been infected with ludicrous conspiracy theories. When one realises that nations throughout the world who have long been on not the best, or even hostile, relations, have all concurred in the importance of vaccination, the idea of some horrible conspiracy going on (by whom and against whom?) becomes utterly ridiculous.
A couple of points. Iirc, vaccination against polio and smallpox differed from vaccination during this pandemic in that those two viruses mutate much more slowly, so immune escape didn't happen.
All-cause mortality for Pfizer was higher in vaccinated. I have seen studies that show it to be higher during the vaccination program.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2022, 02:26:58 PM by Spud »

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5085 on: June 21, 2022, 09:58:48 AM »
...
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5086 on: June 21, 2022, 10:29:40 AM »
All-cause mortality for Pfizer was higher in vaccinated. I have seen studies that show it to be higher during the vaccination program.
Err - evidence please.

But even if that is the case then like there is a simple explanation - being that vaccination programmes started with the oldest and most vulnerable - in other words those most likely to die, either from covid or from other causes.

I'm sure there is a massively greater death rates amongst pensioner bus pass holders compared to those that aren't eligible for a bus pass. Doesn't mean that bus passes are dangerous, does it.

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5087 on: June 21, 2022, 11:21:36 PM »
PD,
A study was done in New Zealand looking at all-cause mortality during the vaccination program. It wasn't confounded by increased COVID deaths, as there were hardly any cases at that time. All-cause mortality went up during the vaccination period. This was during their winter 2021, so I am not sure if it was higher than other winters. But it was claimed to be on a podcast so I will try and find the study.
I think ther are other datasets that show the same result for other countries.

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5088 on: June 22, 2022, 12:18:42 AM »
Here is the podcast showing at 12 minutes the data in a graph relating deaths to vaccinations.
There were overall 34,000 deaths in NZ in 2021. This was 2,300 more than in 2020. Total deaths with a positive Covid test were 59 by December 31 2021.

Maeght

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5089 on: June 22, 2022, 06:40:52 AM »
Here is the podcast showing at 12 minutes the data in a graph relating deaths to vaccinations.
There were overall 34,000 deaths in NZ in 2021. This was 2,300 more than in 2020. Total deaths with a positive Covid test were 59 by December 31 2021.

'The number of deaths registered during 2021 was 34,932, up 2,319 (7.1 percent) from the previous year. Deaths are gradually increasing over time, despite increasing life expectancy, because of general population growth and more people in older age groups.'

'Most deaths occur at older ages. Four out of every five deaths in 2021 were to people aged 65 years and older, and just over half (52 percent) were to those 80 years and older. The number of people in the population reaching these older ages is increasing, which will therefore increase the number of deaths occurring'

https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/births-and-deaths-year-ended-december-2021-including-abridged-period-life-table/

'The crude death rate is the number of deaths relative to the entire population, calculated as the number of deaths per 1,000 estimated population. The crude death rate is a simple measure for examining deaths within the population, as it does not account for mortality rates differing by ages, for example higher infant mortality or higher mortality at older ages.'

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5090 on: June 22, 2022, 08:54:57 AM »
Here is the podcast showing at 12 minutes the data in a graph relating deaths to vaccinations.
There were overall 34,000 deaths in NZ in 2021. This was 2,300 more than in 2020. Total deaths with a positive Covid test were 59 by December 31 2021.
Yes, just looked at the piece about 12 minutes and either your guy is a complete idiot, or is a disingenuous conspiracy theory nut.

Look at the graph and tell me the time period when the peak in deaths occurred - Oh I'll do it for you - it rises from about mid May and then drops back down again by about mid October. Any reason why there might be a rise in deaths in New Zealand[/b] between May and September - here's a clue for you, this is the equivalent of November to March in the UK. Any idea Spud?

So if this is about deaths due to vaccination, then you wouldn't expect the same effect in years prior to covid/vaccination - hmm - look at figure 1 in the link.

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-7-263

Weird eh - there is a spike in deaths every year peaking about July - why, because it is Winter!!!!

Aruntraveller

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5091 on: July 05, 2022, 05:41:02 PM »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5092 on: July 07, 2022, 10:38:27 AM »
Yes, just looked at the piece about 12 minutes and either your guy is a complete idiot, or is a disingenuous conspiracy theory nut.

Look at the graph and tell me the time period when the peak in deaths occurred - Oh I'll do it for you - it rises from about mid May and then drops back down again by about mid October. Any reason why there might be a rise in deaths in New Zealand[/b] between May and September - here's a clue for you, this is the equivalent of November to March in the UK. Any idea Spud?

So if this is about deaths due to vaccination, then you wouldn't expect the same effect in years prior to covid/vaccination - hmm - look at figure 1 in the link.

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-7-263

Weird eh - there is a spike in deaths every year peaking about July - why, because it is Winter!!!!
Yes - I did mention that in #5087. I agree, it looks like the increased all cause mortality was due to it being winter.

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5093 on: July 09, 2022, 07:08:14 PM »
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/05/excess-deaths-rise-not-covid/

Really strange. I've had something quite severe - had to see a GP, who reassured me I hadn't had a brain hemorrhage (had a major headache and couldn't eat for 3 days).
At this time of year I wouldn't expect to come down with Flu (I think that is what it was as I tested negative for covid.)
There has been a lot of Covid around here.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2022, 10:27:09 PM by Spud »

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5094 on: July 10, 2022, 10:11:44 AM »
Yes, just looked at the piece about 12 minutes and either your guy is a complete idiot, or is a disingenuous conspiracy theory nut.

Look at the graph and tell me the time period when the peak in deaths occurred - Oh I'll do it for you - it rises from about mid May and then drops back down again by about mid October. Any reason why there might be a rise in deaths in New Zealand[/b] between May and September - here's a clue for you, this is the equivalent of November to March in the UK. Any idea Spud?

So if this is about deaths due to vaccination, then you wouldn't expect the same effect in years prior to covid/vaccination - hmm - look at figure 1 in the link.

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2458-7-263

Weird eh - there is a spike in deaths every year peaking about July - why, because it is Winter!!!!
I've been sent a link to a study that gives the data on risk/benefit ratio of boosters, in New Zealand:
https://econpapers.repec.org/paper/waieconwp/22_2f11.htm?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
As shown in that 'Peak Prosperity' video, the excess deaths during primary and secondary vaccination don't seem to be much more than expected for the winter period. Excess deaths for the booster period however, seem significantly high, given it was summer time.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 10:13:46 AM by Spud »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5095 on: July 10, 2022, 10:30:56 AM »
I've been sent a link to a study that gives the data on risk/benefit ratio of boosters, in New Zealand:
https://econpapers.repec.org/paper/waieconwp/22_2f11.htm?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
As shown in that 'Peak Prosperity' video, the excess deaths during primary and secondary vaccination don't seem to be much more than expected for the winter period. Excess deaths for the booster period however, seem significantly high, given it was summer time.
You also need to factor in the impact of other measures on expected deaths - so NZ had pretty severe lock down measure in place until recently - in the absence of covid that would have markedly reduced mortality anyway as other transmissible (and sometimes fatal) diseases such as seasonal flu are suppressed. So for the first period you describe the baseline expected deaths would be lower than historically in a typical winter as we don't normally lock down etc.

But the other, important point, about the data is the lag between main vaccination and booster dates. We know that vaccine efficacy declines with time, hence the need for boosters. So the point about the summer data is that you need to take it in context of the booster roll-out. This is shown in Fig1B. So you will see that for the time period assess only about half of the people with earlier vaccination had had boosters. So there will be a considerable portion of the population will have declining vaccination efficacy from the initial vaccination programme, but not have had their boosters yet. Add in an understanding that NZ was beginning to significantly open up during the booster period, the prevalence of new, more transmissible variants, plus the legacy issue to delayed diagnosis of serious disease completely unrelated to covid and the data are completely expected.

None of this in any way negates the importance of the booster programme and without doubt had there been no booster programme, with everything else being the same, we'd have seen more excess deaths.

Maeght

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5096 on: July 10, 2022, 11:01:42 AM »
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/07/05/excess-deaths-rise-not-covid/

Really strange. I've had something quite severe - had to see a GP, who reassured me I hadn't had a brain hemorrhage (had a major headache and couldn't eat for 3 days).
At this time of year I wouldn't expect to come down with Flu (I think that is what it was as I tested negative for covid.)
There has been a lot of Covid around here.

Sorry to hear you've been unwell.

This is an interesting review of excess deaths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f45S6vmQgA&ab_channel=Dr.JohnCampbell

Can't read the article you linked to due to a paywall.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5097 on: July 10, 2022, 11:12:59 AM »
Sorry to hear you've been unwell.

This is an interesting review of excess deaths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f45S6vmQgA&ab_channel=Dr.JohnCampbell

Can't read the article you linked to due to a paywall.
Archived version of article

https://archive.ph/g0yRr

Maeght

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5098 on: July 10, 2022, 11:35:57 AM »

Spud

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Re: Coronavirus
« Reply #5099 on: July 12, 2022, 08:46:50 AM »
Sorry to hear you've been unwell.

This is an interesting review of excess deaths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f45S6vmQgA&ab_channel=Dr.JohnCampbell

Can't read the article you linked to due to a paywall.
I think I got food poisoning from a reduced price chicken sandwich! And then some respiratory virus broke through my innate immune system... So maybe excess deaths could relate to the cost of living and not being able to afford in-date food...