Author Topic: The good that Christianity has done.  (Read 3299 times)

SteveH

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The good that Christianity has done.
« on: February 21, 2020, 01:28:25 PM »
As an antidote to another poster's habit of starting threads about all the things she thinks are wrong about Christianity, let's look on the postive side.
Christians:
invented the nursing profession. The first nurses were monks and nuns, and the modern, secular nursing profession was founded by committed Christians.
invented modern, representative democracy. It arose entirely within Christendom, and is still largely confined to traditionally Christian countries.
were the first religion to abolish slavery. Most of the 18th- and 19th-Century campaigners against slavery were active Christians, and were inspired in their campaign by their faith.
Give to, and volunteer with, charities and good causes more generously than the gerneral public.

Any other examples? (If anyone disagrees, and I'm sure some will, could I ask that they say why, rather than just sayimg that they think Christianity has done more harm than good "imo"?)
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SusanDoris

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2020, 01:35:19 PM »
All I would say is that human beings started these things. It so happens that the ones to whom you refer  had a particular faith belief, but people have been caring for others since the human species evolved, haven't they, and our survival has depended on plants for instance to ease or cure disease.
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Outrider

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2020, 02:16:14 PM »
As an antidote to another poster's habit of starting threads about all the things she thinks are wrong about Christianity, let's look on the postive side.
Christians:

See, this explicitly says Christians, not Christianity.  Some of these people may have been motivated by their interpretation of Christianity, some of them by their inherent decency which didn't abide or conflict with their Christianity, and some even in spite of what the church (or, at least, their church) at the time was saying, but it's difficult to extricate the Christianity from people and give the credit to that particular element of their character without their explicit expression to that effect.

Quote
invented the nursing profession. The first nurses were monks and nuns, and the modern, secular nursing profession was founded by committed Christians.

Nursing existed in ancient Greece, ancient China, pre-Christian Northern Europe and the Americas in various guises - Christianity took it on, in some instances suppressed the older traditions, arguably acquired it as another element of social power it wanted to control, and then modern secular society 'reclaimed it'.  There have been any number of highly worthy Christians who followed nursing traditions, who developed nursing traditions, but Christianity definitively did not 'invent' nursing.

Quote
invented modern, representative democracy. It arose entirely within Christendom, and is still largely confined to traditionally Christian countries.

Christians invented modern, representative democracy as a reaction to the autocratic right of kings that the institutional Christianity of the times was in favour of... again, might have been Christians, but institutional Christianity was on the other side, and individual Christians went either way.

Quote
were the first religion to abolish slavery. Most of the 18th- and 19th-Century campaigners against slavery were active Christians, and were inspired in their campaign by their faith.

The slave trade had existed for millenia, pre-Christian and for centuries withe explicit Christian and church backing. Some Christians, at the same time as well-meaning people throughout Christendom were exploring enlightenment values, were indeed at the forefront of abolishing slavery, but they weren't alone, and only some of them claimed to be motivated by their faith, whilst a significant number of those fighting to keep slavery were doing so for explicitly Christian motivations.

Quote
Give to, and volunteer with, charities and good causes more generously than the gerneral public.

I've seen figures both ways on this, but I suspect it does fall in favour of the religious slightly on total numbers.  I'm not sure what it would be 'per capita' as it were.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2020, 02:51:20 PM »
Christians:
invented the nursing profession. The first nurses were monks and nuns, and the modern, secular nursing profession was founded by committed Christians.
No they didn't.

Nursing is mentioned hundreds of years before Jesus was even born - e.g. 'About 100 B.C.E. the Charaka Samhita was written in India, stating that good medical practice requires a patient, physician, nurse, and medicines, with the nurse required to be knowledgeable, skilled at preparing formulations and dosage, sympathetic towards everyone, and clean.' - taken from Wikepedia

invented modern, representative democracy. It arose entirely within Christendom, and is still largely confined to traditionally Christian countries.
Wrong again - democracy existed well before Christians - for example in ancient Greece and also parts of India some 700BC

were the first religion to abolish slavery. Most of the 18th- and 19th-Century campaigners against slavery were active Christians, and were inspired in their campaign by their faith.
But most of the pro-slavery campaigners were also active Christians - not surprisingly since most people in those countries were themselves Christian - the pro vs anti slavery debate (whether in USA or UK as examples) was very much Christian on Christian.

Give to, and volunteer with, charities and good causes more generously than the gerneral public.
Wrong again - given that churches in the UK are charities a simple assessment of amount given to charity is non-sensical as one of the groups self defines as being active in a charity that requires their donations to support an activity those people want to partake in (religious worship). It would be the same if you compared amateur sports club members (that are charities) with the general public or amateur dramatics group members (that are charities) with the general public.

However once you strip out donations to the church (to provide the religious worship services that directly benefit the giver) then charitable donations are no different between christians and non christians.

Also there was research on volunteering done a couple of years ago - which looked at both formal volunteering (e.g. an organised role in an organised group) and informal volunteering (e.g. helping an elderly neighbour). There was no difference in the rate of volunteering between christians and non christians, even for formal volunteering which is odd as active christians are self defined by being members of a formal group that requires formal volunteering help.

Roses

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2020, 02:56:40 PM »
It would be interesting to have an example of good deed Christianity has encouraged the poster of the OP to perform, which he wouldn't have done if he was an unbeliever?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2020, 03:07:42 PM »
invented modern, representative democracy. It arose entirely within Christendom, and is still largely confined to traditionally Christian countries.
I think it is better to suggest that representative democracy has arisen in many nominally christian countries in spite of christianity as organised churches have often acted as a roadblock to democracy.

And, of course, you have to practice what you preach. If christian denominations are so pro-democracy how come they aren't representate democratic organisations themselves. Certainly the two largest denominations in the UK (CofE and RCC) aren't democratic at all - rank and file members have no say in the selection of pope or bishops etc.

ippy

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2020, 04:40:02 PM »
How about organisations like, 'Medecins Sans Frontieres', the humanitarian organisation that all it wants to do is help people regardless of who or what religion wherever they are and they do this just because they want to help make the world a little bit of a better place to live in for all of us.

'M S F' do this work without looking for imaginary brownie points from unsupported delusional beliefs which in my estimation is a far more selfless and good hearted way of life than any religious believer doing their very best would be able to achieve.

ippy.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2020, 04:49:29 PM »
How about organisations like, 'Medecins Sans Frontieres', the humanitarian organisation that all it wants to do is help people regardless of who or what religion wherever they are and they do this just because they want to help make the world a little bit of a better place to live in for all of us.

'M S F' do this work without looking for imaginary brownie points from unsupported delusional beliefs which in my estimation is a far more selfless and good hearted way of life than any religious believer doing their very best would be able to achieve.

ippy.
Indeed - so for every christian charity there is a secular equivalent Shelter vs Salvation Army; Oxfam vs Christian Aid etc etc. And there is always the nagging doubt that the christian charities there is a part of their work that is proselytising - effectively trying to convert people rather than just to help them with no underlying agenda. There is no concern of that nature for the secular charities.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2020, 09:41:06 PM »
Any other examples? (If anyone disagrees, and I'm sure some will, could I ask that they say why, rather than just sayimg that they think Christianity has done more harm than good "imo"?)
The harm/good balance for any ideology and society that is based around that ideology is always a challenge. All ideologies have good and bad points and often are themselves influenced by other traditions and cultures.

However if we look a judeo-christian culture, tradition and society perhaps the most corrosive element is the notion of collective, inherited guilt, which is fundamental to judaism and christianity (right from the off) and (in my opinion) is just about the most damaging ideology that has ever been developed for the simply reason that it never can be reconciled.

Roses

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2020, 11:47:17 AM »
I note PVJ hasn't replied to this thread. :D

In my opinion, it is not the faith itself, which is responsible for anything good but members of the faith who would probably have done the same even if they were non-believers.
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Sassy

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2020, 12:17:57 PM »
All I would say is that human beings started these things. It so happens that the ones to whom you refer  had a particular faith belief, but people have been caring for others since the human species evolved, haven't they, and our survival has depended on plants for instance to ease or cure disease.

How early was  the cannibal part of mans history? We hear what you say but is cannibalism a part of man natural nature or is it just in neglected areas of the world where time has not caught up?
We can choose to be blind to the other things we rely on for medicine and healing. But the only cures without plants and medicines have come from the power of faith in God.
WHY?  is it because we choose what we believe in?  Turn a blind eye to what cannot be explained like God healing his children and those who are prayed for?

Whatever excuse we turn to for healing we cannot deny that faith in God and his word have brought healing of those things which cannot be healed by a persons will power and wishes alone.

In all things then healing of any kind has come from God.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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Sassy

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2020, 12:19:26 PM »
I note PVJ hasn't replied to this thread. :D

In my opinion, it is not the faith itself, which is responsible for anything good but members of the faith who would probably have done the same even if they were non-believers.

Ask God or don't ask God. No it is not a reasonable or logical reply. erm!
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Anchorman

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2020, 12:25:55 PM »
Indeed - so for every christian charity there is a secular equivalent Shelter vs Salvation Army; Oxfam vs Christian Aid etc etc. And there is always the nagging doubt that the christian charities there is a part of their work that is proselytising - effectively trying to convert people rather than just to help them with no underlying agenda. There is no concern of that nature for the secular charities.
 


Many of those 'secular' charities were founded by Christians.
As for a hidden agenda?
Most Christian agencies will never discriminate on grounds of race or creed, nor will the more reputable seek to force their faith on anyone.
Niether will, or should, we hide our faith from anyone either.
If someone asks why we do what we do, I'd like to think we'd answer honestly.
Ther only group with which I was involved was the Iona Community Rehab project.In the early eighties we ran several rehab houses in Scotland to try and break addiction (under strict NHS medical supervision)
Our houses were in council estates, has nothing to show what they were, and inside had no religious iconography.
We accepted whomever the NHS and Social Work sent us in a non discriminatory, non-judgemental basis - but did not hide who we are and in whom we trusted when asked.
 Yes, there are dubious charities out there - such as Shepherd's Purse - which have more than one motive for their work.
Most others, however, don't.
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Roses

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2020, 12:28:05 PM »
How early was  the cannibal part of mans history? We hear what you say but is cannibalism a part of man natural nature or is it just in neglected areas of the world where time has not caught up?
We can choose to be blind to the other things we rely on for medicine and healing. But the only cures without plants and medicines have come from the power of faith in God.
WHY?  is it because we choose what we believe in?  Turn a blind eye to what cannot be explained like God healing his children and those who are prayed for?

Whatever excuse we turn to for healing we cannot deny that faith in God and his word have brought healing of those things which cannot be healed by a persons will power and wishes alone.

In all things then healing of any kind has come from God.

In your opinion, for which you haven't the slightest shred of evidence.
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Sassy

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2020, 01:15:46 PM »
In your opinion, for which you haven't the slightest shred of evidence.

Wrong== I have the evidence because I chose to look for it.
Why don't you?

Stop making sweeping statements which facts have proved you wrong many times over.  Oh and don't ask me to show you.
Stop being lazy and happy with your own unlearned way of thinking and go search for the truth yourself.
It is no us sticking your fingers in your ears and singing tra la la la lah.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2020, 01:29:53 PM »
Anchs,

Quote
Many of those 'secular' charities were founded by Christians.

Careful - most of anything founded in the UK was founded by Christians because most people were Christians. There's no reason though to think that had they been primarily of other faiths or of no faiths at all they'd have done something else instead. More relevant is that most of these organisations came about post Enlightenment, after centuries of "God's in his heaven so all's right with the world" Christian indifference to the suffering of the great majority who were outside the religious power structures of the time.

Indeed you might well ask why, in the centuries preceding the 17th to 19th centuries when the Christian church had a much firmer grip of civil society, they didn't think to start these institutions when they could.
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Roses

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2020, 01:32:55 PM »
Wrong== I have the evidence because I chose to look for it.
Why don't you?

Stop making sweeping statements which facts have proved you wrong many times over.  Oh and don't ask me to show you.
Stop being lazy and happy with your own unlearned way of thinking and go search for the truth yourself.
It is no us sticking your fingers in your ears and singing tra la la la lah.

Don't tell porkies you have no evidence.
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Sassy

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2020, 01:35:59 PM »
Don't tell porkies you have no evidence.

Your ignorance is showing.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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Roses

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2020, 01:39:49 PM »
Your ignorance is showing.

Yours you mean. :D
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Sassy

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2020, 01:43:46 PM »
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

SteveH

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2020, 03:28:16 PM »
In your opinion, for which you haven't the slightest shred of evidence.
As I've said many, many times beofre but you just don't seem to get it, you never produce a shred of evidence or logical arguments for your many tiresome "imo" posts. Talk about irony!
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Roses

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2020, 03:38:32 PM »
As I've said many, many times beofre but you just don't seem to get it, you never produce a shred of evidence or logical arguments for your many tiresome "imo" posts. Talk about irony!

Talk about irony indeed, you haven't produced any proper evidence support most of your posts, nor have you answered the questions put to you on this thread. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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SteveH

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2020, 05:47:28 PM »
Talk about irony indeed, you haven't produced any proper evidence support most of your posts, nor have you answered the questions put to you on this thread. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
My first three assertions in the OP were backed up by facts. As for the fourth: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/30/religious-people-more-likely-give-charity-study/
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Roses

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2020, 06:20:26 PM »
My first three assertions in the OP were backed up by facts. As for the fourth: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/30/religious-people-more-likely-give-charity-study/

People seem to disagree with your 'facts'. You still haven't answered my question about what good deed/s your faith has encouraged to do that you wouldn't have done if you weren't a theist?
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SteveH

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Re: The good that Christianity has done.
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2020, 07:11:59 PM »
People seem to disagree with your 'facts'. You still haven't answered my question about what good deed/s your faith has encouraged to do that you wouldn't have done if you weren't a theist?
How should I know? How would you have lived your life differently if you had been a believer? It's an impossible question to answer, because you only know about the life you've lived, not another life that you might have lived, but didn't.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".