Author Topic: God and suffering  (Read 15045 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #125 on: April 04, 2020, 06:21:54 PM »
I haven't said that the Universe is necessary - or not necessary.
But you said the universe could be contingent or not and you can't have contingency without necessity.

jeremyp

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #126 on: April 04, 2020, 06:34:16 PM »
But you said the universe could be contingent or not and you can't have contingency without necessity.
I don't understand what your problem is. I have not said the Universe is either contingent or necessary. What I have said is that the things in the Universe are contingent on the Universe i.e. nothing that exists in the Universe could exist if the Universe didn't exist (that seems pretty obvious to me and only a complete muppet would take issue, AFAIC).

The Universe itself is either necessary or contingent. I do not know which. However, if it is necessary, we don't have to postulate ridiculous ideas like the Christian god. If it's contingent, it needs to be contingent on something and then we have the same questions to ask about the something and that leads to an infinite regress if we want to be consistent.
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Stranger

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #127 on: April 04, 2020, 06:36:11 PM »
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torridon

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #128 on: April 04, 2020, 06:56:05 PM »
To get back on track of the opening post,

Pain and suffering do exist as a consequence of the natural unguided forces of this universe.  But by delegating the power of free will to humans, we have a means to help cope with suffering and pain by using our creative abilities to devise ways of alleviating, curing or preventing these things by consciously manipulating the forces of nature.  Such freedom helps to bring true meaning and value to the way we live our lives on this earth.  This is particularly poignant in our current climate.

Free will is irrelevant to that.  How would being free of determinism help ?

That aside, in a god-created universe scenario, it is god that creates pain and suffering, it is by god's will that evil exists.  What kind of father would justify putting his children in needless pain and suffering on the justification that he endowed them with some measure of ingenuity with which to alleviate the pain he caused in the first place ?  Makes no sense to me, I would not treat my kids so despicably.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #129 on: April 04, 2020, 07:31:10 PM »
I don't understand what your problem is. I have not said the Universe is either contingent or necessary. What I have said is that the things in the Universe are contingent on the Universe i.e. nothing that exists in the Universe could exist if the Universe didn't exist (that seems pretty obvious to me and only a complete muppet would take issue, AFAIC).

The Universe itself is either necessary or contingent. I do not know which. However, if it is necessary, we don't have to postulate ridiculous ideas like the Christian god. If it's contingent, it needs to be contingent on something and then we have the same questions to ask about the something and that leads to an infinite regress if we want to be consistent.
That's just wanting contingency without necessity on your part.

jeremyp

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #130 on: April 04, 2020, 08:32:26 PM »
That's just wanting contingency without necessity on your part.
Nope.

Please do me the service of actually reading my posts before replying in future.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #131 on: April 05, 2020, 11:48:13 AM »
Vlad,

Quote
Of course it doesn't. The external creator argument arises naturally from ideas of quotecontingency and necessity and where the explanation resides. It's completely reasonable.

Of course it isn’t. If you want to posit an “external creator” then all the same questions must apply to it as apply to an uncreated universe. Just claiming the answers to be “a mystery” or some such (ie, “it’s magic innit”) is the abnegation of reason. It’s a cop out. It’s Fletcher’s tunnel. 

Quote
Looping and quantum borrowing....I'm game what have you got?

I don’t need to have anything other than plausible hypotheses. If someone wants to falsify them so as to clear the way for his faith belief (albeit erroneously), the burden of proof is all with him to show that they are not plausible.

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Carroll is just reaching where Russell reached...….his barrier of enquiring....although he's less snappy than Russell but brute fact, stop all explaning, all the same.

Way to miss the point. There’s no “barrier to enquiring” (unlike “goddidit” by the way), but rather the point in logic was that inferring there must have been intentionality a priori for the universe to produce little old you is fallacious thinking – it’s the lottery winner’s fallacy. The universe could have produced anything or nothing. If you want to argue that there must be a god to have made the outcome you, then you also need that god to have wanted it to be you in the first place – circular reasoning 101.

Oh, and you have no idea what Russell argued ether by the way.     
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #132 on: April 05, 2020, 11:50:38 AM »
jeremy,

Quote
Please do me the service of actually reading my posts before replying in future.

I admire your optimism. Have you ever known him to do that ever though? Ever ever?

Seriously? 
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Alan Burns

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #133 on: April 05, 2020, 12:08:11 PM »
Free will is irrelevant to that.  How would being free of determinism help ?

That aside, in a god-created universe scenario, it is god that creates pain and suffering, it is by god's will that evil exists.  What kind of father would justify putting his children in needless pain and suffering on the justification that he endowed them with some measure of ingenuity with which to alleviate the pain he caused in the first place ?  Makes no sense to me, I would not treat my kids so despicably.
As I have explained many times:
Free will is NOT free of determinism.
It is determined by our present state of conscious mind.
The clue is in the meaning of the word: "will"

And God created FREEDOM - both in human will and in the nature of the universe.
Pain is just as much a consequence of freedom as is joy.
We are not in Heaven yet.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ekim

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #134 on: April 05, 2020, 12:55:46 PM »

We are not in Heaven yet.
Perhaps you could explain what you mean by 'heaven'.

Walter

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #135 on: April 05, 2020, 01:12:24 PM »
Perhaps you could explain what you mean by 'heaven'.
and where its located , because a girl i know told me i took her there once ?? :P

torridon

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #136 on: April 05, 2020, 01:16:22 PM »
As I have explained many times:
Free will is NOT free of determinism....

Well in that case you really ought to stop claiming that is IS free of determinism.  You have put up hundreds of posts of the SfG thread arguing exactly that. Every post arguing that determinism reduces choice to mere reaction is a post arguing that human will is free of determinism. Every post arguing that we are not tied to endless chains of prior events is a post arguing that human will is free of determinism. Every post arguing that we are influenced by the past but our conscious awareness has the final say is a post arguing that human will is free of determinism.

Do you really not understand this ?

Gordon

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #137 on: April 05, 2020, 01:34:38 PM »
As I have explained many times:
Free will is NOT free of determinism.
It is determined by our present state of conscious mind.

So, Alan, is "our present state of conscious mind" subject to determinism or not?

If not, then "our present state of conscious mind" must be chaotic, which would mean that your 'free will' claim is determined by a chaotic "present state of conscious mind". If so, and since in your formulation 'free will' is determined by something that is itself determined, in that case 'will' is not 'free' as you envisage 'free'.

Either way, your argument is hopeless.

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The clue is in the meaning of the word: "will"

The meaning of the word 'will' isn't really an issue: it is when you try to combine it with 'free' that the cookie begins to crumble.

Quote
And God created FREEDOM - both in human will and in the nature of the universe.
Pain is just as much a consequence of freedom as is joy.
We are not in Heaven yet.

More theobabble.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #138 on: April 05, 2020, 01:37:47 PM »
Vlad,

Of course it isn’t. If you want to posit an “external creator” then all the same questions must apply to it as apply to an uncreated universe.
   
If you want to say God must have had an external creator then that just is another boon for external creation.
It certainly wouldn't be for atheism.

Contingency arguments don't just posit an inexplicable they state that things are either explained by another agency or the explanation is within itself. If your theory lacks contingency and necessity it isn't fully  addressing the basic question.

If the universe contains the necessary entity where and what is it? At the end of the day we focus on what the necessary thing must be like. We know it isn't contingent on the laws of physics or nature.....

Given all that then it becomes irrelevant as to whether the necessary is in or out of the universe.

Alan Burns

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #139 on: April 05, 2020, 01:42:54 PM »
Well in that case you really ought to stop claiming that is IS free of determinism.  You have put up hundreds of posts of the SfG thread arguing exactly that. Every post arguing that determinism reduces choice to mere reaction is a post arguing that human will is free of determinism. Every post arguing that we are not tied to endless chains of prior events is a post arguing that human will is free of determinism. Every post arguing that we are influenced by the past but our conscious awareness has the final say is a post arguing that human will is free of determinism.

Do you really not understand this ?
Torri,
It is you that does not understand.
I have never argued that human will is free of determinism.
My contention is that it is determined from our present state of conscious awareness.
You, and others, seem to be stuck in thinking in terms of the time dependent chains of physical cause and effect over which there is no control - because we can't control the past and we can't control the laws of physics.  Yet conscious control does exist - it is a reality which you need to come to terms with.  It can't be explained away by our limited knowledge of how we presume things work.  And our conscious ability to contemplate such matters illustrates our freedom to think.  Do you really believe that all your thoughts get determined by your subconscious brain activity - it does not make sense.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #140 on: April 05, 2020, 01:46:43 PM »


I don’t need to have anything other than plausible hypotheses. If someone wants to falsify them so as to clear the way for his faith belief (albeit erroneously), the burden of proof is all with him to show that they are not plausible.
     
So, you have a plausible hypothesis but it doesn't need justified? Your taking the piss now.

Alan Burns

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #141 on: April 05, 2020, 01:47:26 PM »


The meaning of the word 'will' isn't really an issue: it is when you try to combine it with 'free' that the cookie begins to crumble.

It is free in the sense that it is not mere reaction to the past.  You need to contemplate the difference between choice and reaction - you are free to contemplate this if you so wish, or you can choose to ignore it.  The choice is yours to make.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #142 on: April 05, 2020, 01:59:15 PM »
Torri,
It is you that does not understand.
I have never argued that human will is free of determinism.
My contention is that it is determined from our present state of conscious awareness.
You, and others, seem to be stuck in thinking in terms of the time dependent chains of physical cause and effect over which there is no control - because we can't control the past and we can't control the laws of physics.  Yet conscious control does exist - it is a reality which you need to come to terms with.  It can't be explained away by our limited knowledge of how we presume things work.  And our conscious ability to contemplate such matters illustrates our freedom to think.  Do you really believe that all your thoughts get determined by your subconscious brain activity - it does not make sense.

And this is one more post arguing that 'conscious control' liberates us from determinism.  You simply don't seem to understand what these concepts mean, despite the fact that Stranger alone must have posted up links to definitions dozens of times.  The claim of free will is inherently a denial of the reality of determinism and many other have pointed out that this claim is inherently illogical, because 'not deterministic' means random and random is not consistent with will.   You cannot be free of determinism without being random for that is what the words mean.  Take some time to read up and digest what these concepts mean, until such time as you understand them you are merely running round in circles of confusion and ignorance.

Stranger

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #143 on: April 05, 2020, 02:03:42 PM »
Free will is NOT free of determinism.

I have never argued that human will is free of determinism.

How can I interpret this as anything other than a blatant barefaced lie? You have been corrected so many times and you just ignore it. Every time you claim we could have done differently you are claiming that human will is free from determinism.

You are not free to just redefine the word 'determinism' to suit your twisted agenda.

See (for example): here, here, and here.

Please stop this dishonesty.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2020, 02:28:09 PM by Never Talk to Strangers »
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Stranger

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #144 on: April 05, 2020, 02:08:09 PM »
My contention is that it is determined from our present state of conscious awareness.

Still gibberish.

Yet conscious control does exist - it is a reality which you need to come to terms with.  It can't be explained away by our limited knowledge of how we presume things work.  And our conscious ability to contemplate such matters illustrates our freedom to think.

More childish foot-stamping.

Where is the logic you said you had? Will you please produce it or admit you have none?
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Gordon

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #145 on: April 05, 2020, 02:57:47 PM »
It is free in the sense that it is not mere reaction to the past.  You need to contemplate the difference between choice and reaction - you are free to contemplate this if you so wish, or you can choose to ignore it.  The choice is yours to make.

Choices are reactions, Alan.

Alan Burns

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #146 on: April 05, 2020, 03:16:57 PM »
How can I interpret this as anything other than a blatant barefaced lie? You have been corrected so many times and you just ignore it. Every time you claim we could have done differently you are claiming that human will is free from determinism.

You are not free to just redefine the word 'determinism' to suit your twisted agenda.

See (for example): here, here, and here.

Please stop this dishonesty.
It is not dishonest to witness to the truth.
The simple truth that you are free to determine your own destiny.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Roses

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #147 on: April 05, 2020, 03:23:19 PM »
It is not dishonest to witness to the truth.
The simple truth that you are free to determine your own destiny.

Claiming it to be the 'truth' is dishonest, as you have no verifiable evidence it is so, it is only a belief.
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Gordon

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #148 on: April 05, 2020, 03:29:06 PM »
It is not dishonest to witness to the truth.

Or what you think to be true, which is a different matter.

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The simple truth that you are free to determine your own destiny.

You are peddling a lie here, Alan.

Alan Burns

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Re: God and suffering
« Reply #149 on: April 05, 2020, 03:43:45 PM »

You are peddling a lie here, Alan.
just as you are free to accuse me of telling a lie
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton