Author Topic: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing? (Read 27497 times)

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #75 on:** March 30, 2020, 12:55:54 PM »

Quote from: enki on March 30, 2020, 12:50:28 PM

What about reality then? I assume that our universe is real, and it is entirely possible that there are other universes also which are part of reality. God, we are often told, is real too. Hence, if that is true He is contingent on reality also. Could it be that reality is simply eternal in your scenario, that it is the necessary and simply just is. Remember also that the contingency idea is only evident within the real world.

If you are saying there has to be an ultimate yes i'd agree with you.

bluehillside Retd. · « **Reply #76 on:** March 30, 2020, 12:56:43 PM »

Vlad,

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If the universe is eternally old then I think we would be justified in observing that it would be like a perpetual motion machine. What is it then that keeps it going? If nothing external......what is necessary, inside the universe?

Again, I wasn't proposing an eternally old universe - I was just correcting your mistake in reasoning. If the universe is eternal though, asking questions about how it works is just an implied argument from personal incredulity, or a god of the gaps. Even if the answer is "don't know", that would provide not one jot of support for the white noise contention "god".

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #77 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:20:34 PM »

Quote from: bluehillside Retd. on March 30, 2020, 12:56:43 PM

Vlad,

Again, I wasn't proposing an eternally old universe - I was just correcting your mistake in reasoning. If the universe is eternal though, asking questions about how it works is just an implied argument from personal incredulity,

No, asking questions of how the universe works is science. Your approach is like the chap who was asked how something works and he replies ''exceeding well''....typical Hillsidian blustery and turdpolish.

So we have an eternal universe (not demonstrable scientifically). There is still the problem that things inside it are observed to be contingent. You have therefore locked your self into this universe with a necessary. Where is it...we ask ourselves.

jeremyp · « **Reply #78 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:22:02 PM »

Quote from: The return of Vlad on March 30, 2020, 11:51:02 AM

I thought you would but alas I have to piss on that bonfire.....Yes, the evidence exists.....but evidence for contingency....and not necessity.

I didn't say there is evidence that the Universe is necessary, I said there is evidence it exists.

I agree that there is no evidence that the Universe is necessary just as I agree there is no evidence that God is necessary. The determining factor is that the Universe is known to exist.

bluehillside Retd. · « **Reply #79 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:27:51 PM »

Vlad,

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No, asking questions of how the universe works is science.

Wrong again. Asking questions is just asking questions. Science is the application of methods and tools to find the answers to questions. It’s not difficult.

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Your approach is like the chap who was asked how something works and he replies ''exceeding well''....typical Hillsidian blustery and turdpolish.

Bullshit. My “approach” is to explain to you that a complete answer, a partial answer or no answer at all tells you nothing whatever about the likelihood of “god” as the alternative. It’s not difficult.

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So we have an eternal universe (not demonstrable scientifically).

No, we have just the hypothesis “eternal universe”.

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There is still the problem that things inside it are observed to be contingent.

What problem?

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You have therefore locked your self into this universe with a necessary. Where is it...we ask ourselves.

Gibberish. What are you even trying to say here?

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #80 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:28:37 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on March 30, 2020, 01:22:02 PM

I didn't say there is evidence that the Universe is necessary, I said there is evidence it exists.

I agree that there is no evidence that the Universe is necessary just as I agree there is no evidence that God is necessary. The determining factor is that the Universe is known to exist.

I think we've realised that but that isn't what the thread is about.

jeremyp · « **Reply #81 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:34:11 PM »

Quote from: The return of Vlad on March 30, 2020, 12:52:12 PM

If the universe is eternally old then I think we would be justified in observing that it would be like a perpetual motion machine. What is it then that keeps it going? If nothing external......what is necessary, inside the universe?

If ~~the universe~~God is eternally old then I think we would be justified in observing that it would be like a perpetual motion machine. What is it then that keeps it going? If nothing external......what is necessary, inside ~~the universe~~God?

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #82 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:42:42 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on March 30, 2020, 01:34:11 PM

If ~~the universe~~God is eternally old then I think we would be justified in observing that it would be like a perpetual motion machine. What is it then that keeps it going? If nothing external......what is necessary, inside ~~the universe~~God?

God is necessary and therefore is not contingent...…...on anything to keep him going.

The universe is observed to be entirely made up of contingent things. So either God keeps the universe going.....or started the universe going or there is another necessary in the universe which is responsible for the contingency in it.

jeremyp · « **Reply #83 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:47:31 PM »

Quote from: The return of Vlad on March 30, 2020, 01:42:42 PM

God is necessary and therefore is not contingent...…...on anything to keep him going.

The universe is observed to be entirely made up of contingent things. So either God keeps the universe going.....or started the universe going or there is another necessary in the universe which is responsible for the contingency in it.

~~God~~The Universe is necessary and therefore is not contingent...…...on anything to keep ~~him~~it going.

~~The universe~~God is observed to be ...

... oh, wait, no. God is not observed at all.

ippy · « **Reply #84 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:48:27 PM »

When you hear from people that can't even separate the difference between those that say that there isn't sufficient viable evidence available to prove this he she or it idea commonly referred to as god exists and those that assert there is no such thing as a god; why would it make anything they say or write worthy of note.

ippy

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #85 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:50:16 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on March 30, 2020, 01:47:31 PM

~~God~~The Universe is necessary and therefore is not contingent...…...on anything to keep ~~him~~it going.

So far the universe is observed to be made up of contingent things. Demonstrate therefore what is necessary in the universe.

ippy · « **Reply #86 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:53:14 PM »

Quote from: The return of Vlad on March 30, 2020, 01:42:42 PM

God is necessary and therefore is not contingent...…...on anything to keep him going.

The universe is observed to be entirely made up of contingent things. So either God keeps the universe going.....or started the universe going or there is another necessary in the universe which is responsible for the contingency in it.

Their's nothing like 'Star Trek' the TV series Vlad, there you go, another assertion.

ippy.

SteveH · « **Reply #87 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:54:14 PM »

The universe is everything, so there's no nothing for it to pop out of. time and space began with the universe

jeremyp · « **Reply #88 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:54:21 PM »

Quote from: The return of Vlad on March 30, 2020, 01:50:16 PM

So far the universe is observed to be made up of contingent things. Demonstrate therefore what is necessary in the universe.

Clearly everything in the Universe is contingent on the existence of the Universe itself.

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #89 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:55:15 PM »

Quote from: ippy on March 30, 2020, 01:48:27 PM

When you hear from people that can't even separate the difference between those that say that there isn't sufficient viable evidence available to prove this he she or it idea commonly referred to as god exists and those that assert there is no such thing as a god; why would it make anything they say or write worthy of note.

ippy

'Ang on. I thort vis fred was abaht the youuuuuniverse?

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #90 on:** March 30, 2020, 01:59:10 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on March 30, 2020, 01:54:21 PM

Clearly everything in the Universe is contingent on the existence of the Universe itself.

Now that is circular. Still doesn't tell us where the necessary is.....again you've just given us a perpetual motion machine.

To sum your position up

The universe is the sum of all contingent things which depend on the universe which is the sum ofall contingent things which depend on the universe which is the sum of all contingent things...

jeremyp · « **Reply #91 on:** March 30, 2020, 02:04:12 PM »

Quote from: The return of Vlad on March 30, 2020, 01:59:10 PM

Now that is circular.

How so?

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Still doesn't tell us where the necessary is

I already did. Remember you asked me to choose between the Universe and some fictional being you dreamed up? And I chose the Universe on the grounds it exists.

Here is the clue for you: things in the Universe are not the Universe.

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again you've just given us a perpetual motion machine.

But in your scenario, God is a perpetual motion machine, unless God is contingent on some creator creator.

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The universe is the sum of all contingent things which depend on the universe which is the sum ofall contingent things which depend on the universe which is the sum of all contingent things...

Nope. I never said the Universe is the sum of all contingent things. Guess again.

bluehillside Retd. · « **Reply #92 on:** March 30, 2020, 02:05:24 PM »

Vlad,

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God is necessary and therefore is not contingent...…...on anything to keep him going.

Translation: “I can’t process how the universe could be, therefore magic”. Call that the cosmological argument if you like, but it’s still BS.

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The universe is observed to be entirely made up of contingent things. So either God keeps the universe going or started the universe going…

False binary. Either “the universe” is sufficient for its own explanation, or any one of a potentially infinite set of possible casual agents.

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…or there is another necessary in the universe which is responsible for the contingency in it.

Like the laws of physics you mean?

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #93 on:** March 30, 2020, 02:10:00 PM »

Quote from: jeremyp on March 30, 2020, 02:04:12 PM

How so?

I already did. Remember you asked me to choose between the Universe and some fictional being you dreamed up? And I chose the Universe on the grounds it exists.

Here is the clue for you: things in the Universe are not the Universe.
But in your scenario, God is a perpetual motion machine, unless God is contingent on some creator creator.
Nope. I never said the Universe is the sum of all contingent things. Guess again.

OK So the universe is more than the things in it...…...and what is left after you take away all the contingent things must be what is necessary...….Is that what you are saying?

or are you saying that the necessary is an emergent property from the contingent things in it?

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #94 on:** March 30, 2020, 02:13:49 PM »

Quote from: bluehillside Retd. on March 30, 2020, 02:05:24 PM

Like the laws of physics you mean?

So the universe is contingent on the Laws Of Nature then?...…..

bluehillside Retd. · « **Reply #95 on:** March 30, 2020, 02:15:09 PM »

Vlad,

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OK So the universe is more than the things in it...

Standard Vlad straw manning, No-one said that.

bluehillside Retd. · « **Reply #96 on:** March 30, 2020, 02:16:55 PM »

Vlad,

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So the universe is contingent on the Laws Of Nature then?...…..

No, the universe "operates" according to the laws of physics, which is what you asked about.

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #97 on:** March 30, 2020, 02:17:21 PM »

Quote from: bluehillside Retd. on March 30, 2020, 02:15:09 PM

Vlad,

Standard Vlad straw manning, No-one said that.

I'm just checking with him that that is what he means. Attempted derail noted.

Walt Zingmatilder · « **Reply #98 on:** March 30, 2020, 02:18:23 PM »

Quote from: bluehillside Retd. on March 30, 2020, 02:16:55 PM

Vlad,

No, the universe "operates" according to the laws of physics, which is what you asked about.

No i'm after what is necessary in the universe.

ippy · « **Reply #99 on:** March 30, 2020, 02:23:29 PM »

Quote from: The return of Vlad on March 30, 2020, 01:55:15 PM

'Ang on. I thort vis fred was abaht the youuuuuniverse?

There you go Vlad, you don't even understand this post, I very much doubt you're pretending to not understand.

ippy

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Author Topic: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing? (Read 27497 times)