Author Topic: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?  (Read 27504 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #150 on: March 30, 2020, 06:30:39 PM »
Vlad,

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How can it be a ''God of the Gaps argument'' when it seeks to explain the whole universe!!!!!!???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....God of the Gaps argument indeed.

Because, obviously, it relies on (perceived) gaps in the available explanations for the origin of the universe to rationalise the insertion of "god". It's the same construction as, "you can't explain thunder, therefore Thor".   
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #151 on: March 30, 2020, 06:34:17 PM »
Vlad,

I see that you edited out the “…to varying degrees” before the list. The cosmological argument and its variants touches on each of these rebuttals but I didn’t say that each (or any) of them WAS the cosmological argument.

In part it is.

In part it is.

Which part of the perfectly clear statement “It just assumes that determinism within the universe must also be necessary for there to be a universe” is confusing you?

I’ve already explained to you the difference between hypotheses and white noise. Why have you just ignored that?

“Magic” is just the BS the cosmological argument to relies on to get god(s) off the hook of itself not requiring a prior cause.

No-one denies a “might be” – deities and leprechauns alike. What was actually being explained was that, even if you could overcome all the previous problems, there’s no reason to arrive at a deity as the causal agent.     

Bullshit. The cosmological argument is an argument for a god, not for something else. Moreoever, you’ve conveniently excised the part about overcoming the prior problems with it – you haven’t managed to do that though so you’ve yet to arrive at a first cause of any type. 

Demolitions don’t fail just because you ignore or straw man their content.
I think you'd have helped your cause by being far more professional and serious and less emotional.
What you should have done is laid the points out and then attacked them point for point.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #152 on: March 30, 2020, 06:35:00 PM »
Vlad,

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I cannot demonstrate scientifically.

No, you cannot demonstrate AT ALL. That's why you always run away when asked for a method to distinguish your claims from just guessing. Remember?

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Shockingly though none of the alternatives is particularly ''natural''.

Alternatives to what? All the hypotheses I know of are naturalistic. "God" can't be an alternative until and unless you find some way to elevate it from white noise.

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But I think the moral panic amongst some atheists is to preserve the unconsciousness of whatever done it.

Bizarre assertion. What "moral panic" do you think you've found?
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #153 on: March 30, 2020, 06:36:54 PM »
Vlad,

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I think you'd have helped your cause by being far more professional and serious and less emotional.

Avoidance noted.

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What you should have done is laid the points out and then attacked them point for point.

There was nothing to attack. Ignoring the arguments or straw manning them does not equal counter-arguments. Try again...

...on second thoughts though...
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #155 on: March 30, 2020, 06:42:33 PM »
Vlad,

Avoidance noted.

There was nothing to attack. Ignoring the arguments or straw manning them does not equal counter-arguments. Try again...

...on second thoughts though...
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #156 on: March 30, 2020, 06:51:08 PM »
Vlad,

Because, obviously, it relies on (perceived) gaps in the available explanations for the origin of the universe to rationalise the insertion of "god"multiverse, Simulated universe, infinite universe, spontaneous universe..... It's the same construction as, "you can't explain thunder, therefore Thor".   
There cleared that up for you.

bluehillside Retd.

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #158 on: March 30, 2020, 07:01:46 PM »
Vlad,

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Because, obviously, it relies on (perceived) gaps in the available explanations for the origin of the universe to rationalise the insertion of multiverse, Simulated universe, infinite universe, spontaneous universe..... It's the same construction as, "you can't explain thunder, therefore Thor".

The first six words of the article YOU linked to are: “The cosmological argument for God's existence…

Let me repeat that last three as they seem to have escaped you: “…for God’s existence…”. I’ll correct it back for you:

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Because, obviously, it relies on (perceived) gaps in the available explanations for the origin of the universe to rationalise the insertion of “god”. It's the same construction as, "you can't explain thunder, therefore Thor".

Such fun when you think you’ve scored a point only for you it to blow up in your face. Can I suggest that you stop making a habit of it though? It’s not a good look. 
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #159 on: March 30, 2020, 07:18:38 PM »
Vlad,

The first six words of the article YOU linked to are: “The cosmological argument for God's existence…

Let me repeat that last three as they seem to have escaped you: “…for God’s existence…”. I’ll correct it back for you:

Such fun when you think you’ve scored a point only for you it to blow up in your face. Can I suggest that you stop making a habit of it though? It’s not a good look.
Yes and you were invited to demolish the argument not you conflating the argument with the arguers.

Enki

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #160 on: March 30, 2020, 08:32:03 PM »
If you are saying there has to be an ultimate yes i'd agree with you.

However I'm not saying that of course. I've already suggested scenarios where your premise of a necessary cause does not apply. I just thought it might be interesting to follow your idea that there has to be a necessary cause and make a suggestion as to what that necessary might be. The idea of reality being the necessary cause would encompass whatever reality contains. I have no particular bias in favour of any of the suggestions put forward in this topic at all.
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Gordon

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #161 on: March 30, 2020, 08:55:17 PM »
I cannot demonstrate scientifically.

You don't say.

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Shockingly though none of the alternatives is particularly ''natural''.

So what alternatives don't feel "particularly natural" to you? Remember too that there may be more to the natural than is currently known, so I'd suggest it would be wiser to adopt a 'we await more information' stance. 

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But I think the moral panic amongst some atheists is to preserve the unconsciousness of whatever done it.

You may think that: I couldn't possibly comment, largely because I've no idea what you are trying to say here.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #162 on: March 30, 2020, 09:29:16 PM »


“Magic” is just the BS the cosmological argument to relies on to get god(s) off the hook of itself not requiring a prior cause.

Dear oh dear.

If you are prepared to accept the universe has no cause and is eternal then you have no warrant to suggest that nothing else can be eternal. That is special pleading.

Gordon

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #163 on: March 31, 2020, 07:44:23 AM »
Dear oh dear.

If you are prepared to accept the universe has no cause and is eternal then you have no warrant to suggest that nothing else can be eternal. That is special pleading.

In which case it would be, and by the same token, special pleading by anyone who claimed that the only eternal first-cause must be the thing they refer to as 'God' - yes?

SteveH

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #164 on: March 31, 2020, 08:07:33 AM »
"IF YOU ADMIT THAT A DEISTIC DEITY ..." as opposed to a theistic theity?
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Sriram

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #165 on: March 31, 2020, 08:19:34 AM »

What came before the Big Bang....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8-oocxPwlM

Outrider

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #166 on: March 31, 2020, 08:29:55 AM »
I think you'd have helped your cause by being far more professional and serious and less emotional.
What you should have done is laid the points out and then attacked them point for point.

And have you come back with 'well obviously not THAT version of the cosmological special pleading argument!'.  Why don't you formulate the argument as you like it, and then we'll point out the extremely well-established fundamental flaws with it?

O.
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Outrider

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #167 on: March 31, 2020, 09:01:18 AM »
http://www.religiouseducation.co.uk/school/alevel/philosophy/cosmological/Kalam_summary.htm

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Let's begin with (1): the universe either had a beginning or did not have a beginning. Craig offers three arguments in support of a universe with a beginning. Two are philosophical; one is scientific. Here is the first philosophical argument:

1. An actual infinite cannot exist.
2. A beginningless series of events in time is an actual infinite.
3. Therefore, a beginningless series of events in time cannot exist.
Premise One
In contemporary set theory, an actual infinite is a collection of things with an infinite number of members, for example, a library with an actually infinite set of books or a museum with an actually infinite set of paintings. One of the unique traits of an actual infinite is that part of an actually infinite set is equal to whole set. For example, in an actually infinite set of numbers, the number of even numbers in the set is equal to all of the numbers in the set. This follows because an infinite set of numbers contains an infinite number of even numbers as well as an infinite number of all numbers; hence a part of the set is equal to the whole of the set. Another trait of the actual infinite is that nothing can be added to it. Not one book can be added to an actually infinite library or one painting to an actually infinite museum.

This fundamentally misrepresents set theory by conflating two infinities as being equal - like zero, infinity is not a number it's a mathematical concept, and there are different infinities.  This fails to establish that an infinite series is impossible, and therefore fundamentally undermines the first premise.

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While these counter-intuitive paradoxes might make sense at the level of mathematical theory, they do not make much sense in the real world of books and libraries.

This particular line seems disengenuous to me - we aren't talking about the everyday, we're talking about the entirety of existence and the potential for an all-powerful creator - these are outside of the boundaries of the day-to-day intellectual short-cuts and estimates that normally suffice.

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Having given three arguments to show that the universe had a beginning, we can move on to the second dilemma posed by the KCA: if the universe had a beginning, the beginning was either (a) caused or (b) uncaused. Before discussing the (a) option, we should consider what is becoming a common response to this dilemma from those critical of the cosmological argument. Some theorists speculate that before Plank's time (10 to the negative 43 seconds after the universe began) the universe came into existence out of a quantum mechanical fluctuation. Hence some argue that the universe came out of nothing. Moreland, however, rightly points out that identifying nothingness with something, in this case a mechanical fluctuation, is a mistake; nothingness does not cause anything, let alone fluctuate or bring a universe into existence. Astronomer Hugh Ross notes that one of these theorists, Alan Guth, remarked that "such ideas are speculation squared." Put more concretely, there are three main problems with the quantum fluctuation speculation: it is based upon (1) a non existent theory of quantum gravity, (2) the use of imaginary numbers, and (3) the assumption that the universe was in a quantum state in its early beginning and thus had an indeterminate beginning.

Oh boy.  Actually, quantum theory, and experimental observation, supports the contention that something can, and indeed does, come from nothing on a regular basis. At least part of the flaw, here, is seeing 'nothing' as some sort of ground state from which every 'something' is up.  Nothing is the balance point, and can be split into equal parts matter and anti-matter - no net change, but localised and specific differences.  Something (and anti-something, which is still not nothing) spontaneously emerging.

All of which is to fail to appreciate that the contention the universe 'came from nothing' is a shorthand for 'came from nothing within the universe', which is the current limit of science's remit.  It says nothing about what might or might exist outside of the universe, or how that might have been involved in the start of any universes.

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Under the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics, there needs to be someone to observe the quantum fluctuation that produced the universe.

Another misunderstanding, not confined to Lane-Craig - the 'observer' in this depiction doesn't need to be a conscious, or even living, thinking being.  The observer is whatever 'device' is measuring in the experiment, and when translated to behaviour in relating correlates with whatever physical interaction comes next in the chain - it could be an electron waiting to either change energy levels and emit a photon or remain where it is, it's the 'observer'.

Further, this entire section is a 'gaps' argument - there are questions about various scientific interpretation of a natural cause for a universe, but nothing actually supporting the idea of a conscious creator, just scepticism about the current (or in the case of Professor Hawking's quote, a very dated) scientific commentary.  At best that reduces to 'we still don't know' - specifically:

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Put more concretely, there are three main problems with the quantum fluctuation speculation: it is based upon (1) a non existent theory of quantum gravity, (2) the use of imaginary numbers, and (3) the assumption that the universe was in a quantum state in its early beginning and thus had an indeterminate beginning.

That we don't have a theory of quantum gravity yet doesn't mean there isn't one.

If the use of imaginary numbers discounts science, why doesn't the use of imaginary gods discount religion?  Imaginary numbers are well-validate, well-established part of the mathematical framework that operate in more than the four-dimensional space we currently intellectually operate in; that said, I don't actually see any reference to imaginary numbers in the account, I think this is a misunderstanding of the concept of infinity only being partially operable as a number.

There are a number of promising ideas that are based on the extrapolation back from our earliest information on the state of the universe which lead to ideas around a quantum state, but until there's a break-through that's just one type of hypothesis.

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First, what does it mean to say that the cause of the universe is a natural one? Natural causes exist within the universe, not outside of it. If something preceded the universe, then by definition it is not a natural cause, because the laws of nature came into existence after whatever preceded the universe.

Do they? None of Oxford, Merriam-Webster or Cambridge online dictionaries mention 'the universe' (or a synonym) in their definition of 'natural'.  Natural causes do exist within the universe, but there is nothing to say they are limited to it.  That we, in normal conversation, tend to mean it to refer to things within the universe is an artefact of the fact that we reside entirely within the universe, not as a deliberate attempt to differentiate.

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Second, if the cause of the universe is a sufficient cause, meaning that the existence of the cause alone guarantees the existence of the universe, the universe would always have existed.

Depending on whether you see Block Time as valid, the universe may have always existed for it's full extent, but regardless of that... there is a presumption in this that the extra-universal reality is static, somehow - perhaps it is, but we have no way to know.  If Block Time is invalid, then the universe has still 'always' existed to the extent that particular dimension of time that we're referring to is part of the universe and came into existence with the universe - it's literally exactly as old as time itself.

This fails to establish why only a conscious necessary agent is not static; it's a failed argument, but even then it's still an argument against a particular theory of a natural cause and not an argument in favour of a conscious one.

Overall, this particular framing evades the most egregious special pleading variants that William Lane-Craig's typical variations do, but it's still flawed at every single stage.

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #168 on: March 31, 2020, 09:21:20 AM »
In which case it would be, and by the same token, special pleading by anyone who claimed that the only eternal first-cause must be the thing they refer to as 'God' - yes?
In the version of the Kalam cosmological argument I gave the reference for, one of the premises acknowledges that the eternal first cause could be either personal or impersonal and then I believe goes on to argue for the personal. So no special pleading as such.

On the other hand others from Aristotle through to Aquinas and to Feser today have 'claimed' that the first cause is what we call God. Basically Classic theism staked a claim. Why they did so is probably an extended argument and why different religions claim a different version is I move down to different arguments.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #169 on: March 31, 2020, 09:25:48 AM »
"IF YOU ADMIT THAT A DEISTIC DEITY ..." as opposed to a theistic theity?
I actually don't know why Hillside didn't go as far theistic theity although I have come across atheists who grudgingly admit the possibility of a deistic God IMO because a deistic God isn't worried about things like atheism….or people for that matter. A deistic God leaves a universe confortably God Free.

Gordon

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #170 on: March 31, 2020, 09:27:49 AM »
In the version of the Kalam cosmological argument I gave the reference for, one of the premises acknowledges that the eternal first cause could be either personal or impersonal and then I believe goes on to argue for the personal. So no special pleading as such.

On the other hand others from Aristotle through to Aquinas and to Feser today have 'claimed' that the first cause is what we call God. Basically Classic theism staked a claim. Why they did so is probably an extended argument and why different religions claim a different version is I move down to different arguments.

Vlad

The KCA is special pleading par excellence, from start to finish, and especially as peddled by the odious Lane Craig.

See Outrider's excellent recent post.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #171 on: March 31, 2020, 09:33:05 AM »
And have you come back with 'well obviously not THAT version of the cosmological special pleading argument!'.  Why don't you formulate the argument as you like it, and then we'll point out the extremely well-established fundamental flaws with it?

O.

Why don't you? I'm not about to tell Hillside he should have taken on the Kalam and then taken on each point and let you go scot free.

If there are extremely well-established fundamental flaws then they shouldn't be difficult to point out.

I hope you are not suggesting though The old chestnut ''Everything has a cause'' leading to '' all right then what caused God''......not even Lane Craig argues that.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #172 on: March 31, 2020, 09:35:31 AM »
Vlad

The KCA is special pleading par excellence, from start to finish, and especially as peddled by the odious Lane Craig.

See Outrider's excellent recent post.
The KCA that Craig proposes does not begin ''everything has a cause'' Gordon. How is it special pleading?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #173 on: March 31, 2020, 09:39:50 AM »
Vlad

The KCA is special pleading par excellence, from start to finish, and especially as peddled by the odious Lane Craig.

See Outrider's excellent recent post.
I am commencing my demolition of it in due course.

Gordon

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Re: Did the universe pop out of nowhere and nothing?
« Reply #174 on: March 31, 2020, 09:50:11 AM »
The KCA that Craig proposes does not begin ''everything has a cause'' Gordon. How is it special pleading?

I didn't say it did, Vlad, but cosmological arguments like the KCA are flawed anyway, as O's recent post highlights.

Lane Craig's tweaking of it, which starts 'The universe has a cause', is just a rearrangement designed to open the door for a causal agent who happens to be his preferred "uncaused, personal Creator of the universe"  - hooda thunkit, eh.

When you are doing your "demolition" of Outider's post perhaps you could also say something about Kant's concern that the cosmological argument does lean on the flawed ontological argument.