Author Topic: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free  (Read 41563 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #75 on: April 15, 2020, 12:56:36 PM »
Really? Try your  Reply #59 Here you say they are not dependent on time and space for their existence.
You asked about their dependency and I have been very clear - in other words that time/space time are manifestations of those physical laws - time and space only exist because of those physical laws. Dependency doesn't have to be equally two way, but that doesn't mean there is no dependency.

Try this one - using one of those physical laws:

The orbiting of our planets around the sun is dependent on the laws of gravity.

However

The laws of gravity are not dependent on the orbiting of our planets around the sun.

It isn't rocket science ... well actually it is, as rocket science depends on the laws of gravity, although the laws of gravity do not depend on rocket science.

Owlswing

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #76 on: April 15, 2020, 01:24:47 PM »
You asked about their dependency and I have been very clear - in other words that time/space time are manifestations of those physical laws - time and space only exist because of those physical laws. Dependency doesn't have to be equally two way, but that doesn't mean there is no dependency.

Try this one - using one of those physical laws:

The orbiting of our planets around the sun is dependent on the laws of gravity.

However

The laws of gravity are not dependent on the orbiting of our planets around the sun.

It isn't rocket science ... well actually it is, as rocket science depends on the laws of gravity, although the laws of gravity do not depend on rocket science.

Am I right in assuming that yoiu are in no way expecting a cogent dissertation on why you are wrong - except for the statement that God and his (blinkered) foillowers reject it because it denies God's input?

The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #77 on: April 15, 2020, 01:38:57 PM »
You asked about their dependency and I have been very clear - in other words that time/space time are manifestations of those physical laws - time and space only exist because of those physical laws.
Yes we know that  time and space are manifestations but if these laws are not dependent on there existence then for the umpteenth time in what sense are the laws existent The term manifestation doesn't get you far because the thing they are manifest from have a state of existence.

For the final time, in what state do the laws exist if not dependent on there existence on time and space?

Walter

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #78 on: April 15, 2020, 02:14:20 PM »
Yes we know that  time and space are manifestations but if these laws are not dependent on there existence then for the umpteenth time in what sense are the laws existent The term manifestation doesn't get you far because the thing they are manifest from have a state of existence.

For the final time, in what state do the laws exist if not dependent on there existence on time and space?
oh! you mean god made the laws and the universe obeys them

glad we got that sorted out !    FFS  ::)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #79 on: April 15, 2020, 02:23:12 PM »
Yes we know that  time and space are manifestations but if these laws are not dependent on there existence then for the umpteenth time in what sense are the laws existent The term manifestation doesn't get you far because the thing they are manifest from have a state of existence.

For the final time, in what state do the laws exist if not dependent on there existence on time and space?
I've already answered that - they exist because we can measure their impact and make reliable predictions about the world around us based on those laws.

As I've mentioned previously, your question is as non-sensical as asking how gravity can exist if it isn't dependent on the orbits of the planets.

The fundamental laws of physics sit above (in other words are more fundamentally) that things which are manifestations of those laws, including time, space, orbits of planets, design of rockets that allow them to escape from earth's gravitational pull etc etc.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #80 on: April 15, 2020, 02:56:20 PM »
I've already answered that - they exist because we can measure their impact and make reliable predictions about the world around us based on those laws.
Not really. I asked in what form they exist. The universe which presumably depends for it's existence on the laws of nature but not vica versa is comprised of space time and matter/energy. That is the form in which it exists. If the existence of the laws is not dependent on these for it's form then in what form does it exist? You have already let slip a bit of a clue. The laws themselves cannot be measured directly.
What manner then of natural thing cannot be measured directly? And if you can allow something which you cannot measure directly how can you then deny this property for, say, God?
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As I've mentioned previously, your question is as non-sensical as asking how gravity can exist if it isn't dependent on the orbits of the planets.
No see above. If you can readily allow The laws themselves not to have physical properties or be dependent on there existence then you have no warrant to deny that in other things.
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The fundamental laws of physics sit above (in other words are more fundamentally) that things which are manifestations of those laws, including time, space, orbits of planets, design of rockets that allow them to escape from earth's gravitational pull etc etc.
That is almost like saying 'God sits above his creation'...….but God is a spirit in heaven. Where and what are the laws then if not dependent on time, space, orbits of planets etc.etc?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 03:06:22 PM by To Infinity and beyond »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #81 on: April 15, 2020, 03:46:32 PM »
The universe which presumably depends for it's existence on the laws of nature ...
Well actually laws of physics, but nonetheless, yup I agree.

but not vica versa
In other words the universe depends on the laws of physics - yup again I agree.

... is comprised of space time and matter/energy.
Which are themselves dependent on the laws of physics - space/time don't really exist outside the laws of physics in the same way are planetary orbits don't really exist outside of the laws of gravity (one of those fundamental laws of physics).

If the existence of the laws is not dependent on these for it's form then in what form does it exist?

You have already let slip a bit of a clue. The laws themselves cannot be measured directly.
They exist as a fundamental law of physics just as gravity does, or light or sound etc.

What manner then of natural thing cannot be measured directly?
Very few things are measured directly, or even experience directly - whether we measure temperature by the indirect change in resistance of a thermocouple, or detect light via chemical changes in the eye and neural transmission to the brain, these are indirect. But just because they are indirect doesn't mean they are inaccurate nor inconsistent, because the measurement systems are themselves based on fundamental physical phenomena and laws.

And if you can allow something which you cannot measure directly how can you then deny this property for, say, God?No see above. If you can readily allow The laws themselves not to have physical properties or be dependent on there existence then you have no warrant to deny that in other things.That is almost like saying 'God sits above his creation'...….but God is a spirit in heaven. Where and what are the laws then if not dependent on time, space, orbits of planets etc.etc?
Nope - because the difference is one of consistency and prediction.

So to take gravity as an example - I can use the fundamental laws of physics to predict the orbits of the planets. I can use (and people have) anomalies in planetary orbits to predict the presence of a more distant planet affecting gravity - and guess what, you find that planet. I can use those fundamental laws (and their indirect measurement) to design a rocket with its trajectory to leave earths orbit and be capture by the moon's orbit to allow astronauts to visit the moon.

Sure the measurement may be indirect, but the concepts and the laws can be verified through prediction and through the predictable function of engineering systems or identification of physical phenomena.

None of that can be attributed to a purported god - people have at times tried to base predictions, observations and outcomes on god, but guess what ... the earth is at the centre of the universe, the rocket crashes, the church congregation aren't protected by god's love from dying from COVID-19.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 03:49:24 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #82 on: April 15, 2020, 04:28:37 PM »
Well actually laws of physics, but nonetheless, yup I agree.
In other words the universe depends on the laws of physics - yup again I agree.
Which are themselves dependent on the laws of physics - space/time don't really exist outside the laws of physics in the same way are planetary orbits don't really exist outside of the laws of gravity (one of those fundamental laws of physics).
They exist as a fundamental law of physics just as gravity does, or light or sound etc.
Very few things are measured directly, or even experience directly - whether we measure temperature by the indirect change in resistance of a thermocouple, or detect light via chemical changes in the eye and neural transmission to the brain, these are indirect. But just because they are indirect doesn't mean they are inaccurate nor inconsistent, because the measurement systems are themselves based on fundamental physical phenomena and laws.
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None of which answers my question. If not dependent on space time matter energy for existence, in what form do the laws exist?
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Nope - because the difference is one of consistency and prediction.

You don't have to believe in God to realise that when asked for the form God takes a form(spirit) and a dimension(heaven) are offered.

We believe in the universe and that exists in the form of time/space matter and energy. so again, form and dimension

Since The laws are not dependent for existence on time/space matter and energy, what form does their existence take? So far your answer has been inadequate. As exemplified by this 'answer' when asked in what form the laws exist

Quote
They exist as a fundamental law of physics
So the laws exist as laws then......that of course is no answer.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #83 on: April 15, 2020, 05:30:34 PM »
You don't have to believe in God to realise that when asked for the form God takes a form(spirit) and a dimension(heaven) are offered.

We believe in the universe and that exists in the form of time/space matter and energy. so again, form and dimension

Since The laws are not dependent for existence on time/space matter and energy, what form does their existence take? So far your answer has been inadequate. As exemplified by this 'answer' when asked in what form the laws exist
So the laws exist as laws then......that of course is no answer.
Is this supposed to make any kind of sense Vlad!?!

Roses

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #84 on: April 15, 2020, 05:38:55 PM »
Vlad's posts get more and more nonsensical! ::)
"At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember them."

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #85 on: April 15, 2020, 05:40:59 PM »
Is this supposed to make any kind of sense Vlad!?!
Yes when asked what form do The laws exist in you said they existed as laws.

That is no answer of course.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #86 on: April 15, 2020, 05:43:22 PM »
Vlad's posts get more and more nonsensical! ::)
OK then LR what sort of answer to the question 'what form do the laws of nature take' is 'They exist as laws'?

Walter

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #87 on: April 15, 2020, 05:47:25 PM »
OK then LR what sort of answer to the question 'what form do the laws of nature take' is 'They exist as laws'?
tell you what ,Vlad you ask a question and then tell us what answer you want . Then we can all fuck off and leave you to it  ::)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #88 on: April 15, 2020, 06:00:44 PM »
tell you what ,Vlad you ask a question and then tell us what answer you want . Then we can all fuck off and leave you to it  ::)
Has no one told you that an answer which just uses the same words as the question is no answer?

OK then how do laws 'exist'. Show me a law? How big is it? How much does it weigh?

Walter

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2020, 06:41:13 PM »
Has no one told you that an answer which just uses the same words as the question is no answer?

OK then how do laws 'exist'. Show me a law? How big is it? How much does it weigh?
a law is the name given to a set of rules which determine how some phenomena works /operates . Predictions can be made from said laws .

F=ma        Newtons second law of motion


wiegh?      dont be stupid !

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2020, 07:00:04 PM »
a law is the name given to a set of rules which determine how some phenomena works /operates .
And how do they determine that phenomena?

Walter

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #91 on: April 15, 2020, 07:10:27 PM »
And how do they determine that phenomena?
are you takin' the piss?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #92 on: April 15, 2020, 08:10:40 PM »
are you takin' the piss?
Just answer the question please.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #93 on: April 15, 2020, 08:16:58 PM »
Just answer the question please.
Methodological naturalism - which you accept. So given that any chance of you giving a methodology for your supernatural claims? You know the question you haven't answered despite being asked hundreds and hundreds of times? The one that you don't answer?

Are you trying to define the term 'boringly hypocritical' with your posts?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #94 on: April 15, 2020, 08:40:34 PM »
How much does it weigh?
Under which gravitation conditions.

Vlad - you do understand that the concept of weight isn't fixed but varies depending on the gravitational conditions. And that weight as a concept is entirely defined by, and dependent on fundamental physical laws, in this case F=MA

Walter

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #95 on: April 15, 2020, 08:48:44 PM »
Just answer the question please.
Vlad'

there's a whole load of physics to learn before you can understand the answer and I'm not about to teach you , sorry .

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2020, 08:48:23 AM »
Methodological naturalism - which you accept. So given that any chance of you giving a methodology for your supernatural claims? You know the question you haven't answered despite being asked hundreds and hundreds of times? The one that you don't answer?

Are you trying to define the term 'boringly hypocritical' with your posts?
What the laws exist as methodological naturalism? How does that work?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #97 on: April 16, 2020, 08:50:29 AM »
Under which gravitation conditions.

Vlad - you do understand that the concept of weight isn't fixed but varies depending on the gravitational conditions. And that weight as a concept is entirely defined by, and dependent on fundamental physical laws, in this case F=MA
You said the fundamental laws of nature do not depend on physics for their existence did you not. Have you changed your mind?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #98 on: April 16, 2020, 08:53:05 AM »
Vlad'

there's a whole load of physics to learn before you can understand the answer and I'm not about to teach you , sorry .

I'm sorry, I doubt you could teach me much even if you wanted to. Your sentiments are completely irrelevant to the question in any case.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #99 on: April 16, 2020, 09:00:24 AM »
Methodological naturalism - which you accept. So given that any chance of you giving a methodology for your supernatural claims? You know the question you haven't answered despite being asked hundreds and hundreds of times? The one that you don't answer?

Are you trying to define the term 'boringly hypocritical' with your posts?
I see, you think that when I say 'how do they determine that phenomena' I mean how do people determine it. I don't. I mean How do the laws themselves, which Prof Davey states have existence not dependent on phenomena, How do the laws themselves determine phenomena?

What ability do they have to do that?

If they are abstract like maths....How can they actually interact with the physical to cause the phenomena? If they are more than abstract in what form can they said to be existent?