Author Topic: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free  (Read 41379 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #575 on: May 05, 2020, 04:59:08 PM »
I said religionists have been looking for evidence for centuries not trying to satisfy science for thousands of years. Science does finding about reality. If religion has been doing something that isn’t finding out about reality, I’m fine with that, but you can’t then claim your god is part of reality, at least not with any degree of honesty.
Not sure about that. Surely if someone has a personal experience of their god then it is part of their reality that they are being honest about. Given the problem of hard solipsism science is not about objective reality either.

jeremyp

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #576 on: May 05, 2020, 05:01:57 PM »
Not sure about that. Surely if someone has a personal experience of their god then it is part of their reality that they are being honest about. Given the problem of hard solipsism science is not about objective reality either.
Just because somebody thinks something is real, doesn’t mean it is real.

If science is not about objective reality, what is it about? 
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #577 on: May 05, 2020, 05:25:02 PM »
Just because somebody thinks something is real, doesn’t mean it is real.

If science is not about objective reality, what is it about?
It doesn't mean it is real but it does mean that they aren't  being dishonest when they talk about it.

Science is intersubjective, not objective.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #578 on: May 05, 2020, 07:07:56 PM »
Science is intersubjective, not objective.
Science is objective, that's the whole point - it may also be intersubjective too (although that's a term that I'd not come across and doesn't seem particularly relevant).
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 07:10:03 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #579 on: May 05, 2020, 07:25:20 PM »
Science is objective, that's the whole point - it may also be intersubjective too (although that's a term that I'd not come across and doesn't seem particularly relevant).
No, you can't avoid the problem of hard solipsism to claim objectivity.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #580 on: May 05, 2020, 07:25:57 PM »
Prof,

Quote
Science is objective, that's the whole point - it may also be intersubjective too (although that's a term that I'd not come across and doesn't seem particularly relevant).

Isn’t the point here that science strives to be objective, but cannot with certainty truly be so because it’s practised by subjective beings – ie, us? It’s a huge leap forward from superstition as a guide to what’s true of course, but the practice of it can still be prone to selection bias, confounding bias, information bias etc no matter how much its methods seek to eliminate these things
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #581 on: May 05, 2020, 07:30:24 PM »
Prof,

Isn’t the point here that science strives to be objective, but cannot with certainty truly be so because it’s practised by subjective beings – ie, us? It’s a huge leap forward from superstition as a guide to what’s true of course, but the practice of it can still be prone to selection bias, confounding bias, information bias etc no matter how much its methods seek to eliminate these things
Completely agree. This would be where I might point out that science is methodologically naturalistic but jeremyp might object because using long words is wrong. Both PD and jp seem to me to being the  philosophical naturalists that Vlad talks about.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #582 on: May 05, 2020, 10:07:37 PM »
NS,

Quote
Completely agree. This would be where I might point out that science is methodologically naturalistic but jeremyp might object because using long words is wrong. Both PD and jp seem to me to being the  philosophical naturalists that Vlad talks about.

Not sure about PD and jp here, but yes science certainly is methodologically naturalistic. The cheat some theists will then try though is, “so if science can only address the natural/material how can it possibly answer questions about the supernatural/non-material?” as if something science doesn’t claim at all is in some way a failing with it. Worse, nor will such people trouble themselves with either:

- demonstrating that there is a supernatural/non-material in the first place; or

- providing an alternative method to that of science that can investigate and validate such claims.

I’ve tried asking about this many times, but always get only a tumbleweed moment in reply.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #583 on: May 05, 2020, 10:11:52 PM »
NS,

Not sure about PD and jp here, but yes science certainly is methodologically naturalistic. The cheat some theists will then try though is, “so if science can only address the natural/material how can it possibly answer questions about the supernatural/non-material?” as if something science doesn’t claim at all is in some way a failing with it. Worse, nor will such people trouble themselves with either:

- demonstrating that there is a supernatural/non-material in the first place; or

- providing an alternative method to that of science that can investigate and validate such claims.

I’ve tried asking about this many times, but always get only a tumbleweed moment in reply.
I am just using their posts about reality. I am uninterested in the problems of 'some theists'. Don't you think that the idea that science is objective as PD and jp seem to think is hugely problematic?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #584 on: May 06, 2020, 09:05:51 AM »
I said religionists have been looking for evidence for centuries not trying to satisfy science for thousands of years. Science does finding about reality. If religion has been doing something that isn’t finding out about reality, I’m fine with that, but you can’t then claim your god is part of reality, at least not with any degree of honesty.
I never said that the philosophical, spiritual or moral undertaking which is religion isn't finding out about reality. So I guess that clears me to claim God as a reality.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #585 on: May 06, 2020, 09:31:33 AM »
No, you can't avoid the problem of hard solipsism to claim objectivity.
Oh no NS - you've just morphed into Vlad.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #586 on: May 06, 2020, 09:34:12 AM »
Oh no NS - you've just morphed into Vlad.
Yawn! The fact that Vlad badly misuses some terms in philosophy doesn't remove all meaning in them.  Rather than indulge in guilt by association, you could try and point out what you disagree with and why.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #587 on: May 06, 2020, 09:42:08 AM »
Prof,

Isn’t the point here that science strives to be objective, but cannot with certainty truly be so because it’s practised by subjective beings – ie, us?
But that doesn't mean that science, in its theoretical state, isn't objective - merely that scientist are sometime not able to meet that goal.

But the point about science and the scientific method is that it firstly recognises those issues and goes out of its way to mitigate against and eliminate any subjective interference in the objectivity of scientific data. So firstly, wherever possible the collection of data will be automated, removing human subjectivity. Secondly reproducibility - the key element of scientific that data are only valid where they are reproducible in another setting and 'another scientists hand' - this is effectively about eliminating the individual subjectivity. If many scientists, working independently are able to reproduce the data then we move toward true objectivity. Thirdly, and linked to the second, an understanding of variability in data - and in the most appropriately designed studies, the ability to undercover the source of that variability, be it inherent in the data (and therefore objective) or an artefact of the experiment, whether due to human variability or inherent in the method.

So although you may argue that the collection of scientific data is not truly objective in practice, it is in theory and the method itself is designed to eliminate as much subjectivity as possible to drive it as near as possible to true objectivity. As such I think it is perfectly valid to describe science as objective. Not to do so simply lumps it with other approaches that never aim at objectivity nor classify subjectivity as a flaw.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #588 on: May 06, 2020, 09:44:28 AM »
Yawn! The fact that Vlad badly misuses some terms in philosophy doesn't remove all meaning in them.  Rather than indulge in guilt by association, you could try and point out what you disagree with and why.
No - you are doing the classic Vlad - throw in a term, don't define it - don't explain why you think it to be relevant to the discussion etc.

So please define hard solipsism and make your argument as to its relevance to this discussion on the objectivity (or otherwise) of science, and then I'll engage in a discussion.

Upthread I've already explained, in some details, why I think it is perfectly valid to describe science as objective.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #589 on: May 06, 2020, 09:57:43 AM »
No - you are doing the classic Vlad - throw in a term, don't define it - don't explain why you think it to be relevant to the discussion etc.

So please define hard solipsism and make your argument as to its relevance to this discussion on the objectivity (or otherwise) of science, and then I'll engage in a discussion.

Upthread I've already explained, in some details, why I think it is perfectly valid to describe science as objective.
And you are quite simply wrong. As bhs has already pointed out we are by definition subjective beings, and what science does is use our ability to communicate to get an agreed intersubjective position. But since we can never be sure that any of our own experiences are real  including that anyone else exists then all of those experiences are questionable.

Objectivity is an absolute. Given we are subjective, we cannot achieve it.


In day to day discussion, it doesn't really matter. In that sense it is rather like the free will discussion. We go about pur lives acting as if there is such a thing as free will but at base it makes no sense. So with science we go about it as if it can achieve objectivity,  but given our restrictions that makes no sense either.

That doesn't devalue the importance and value of science from our quotidian experience.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #590 on: May 06, 2020, 10:43:04 AM »
... from our quotidian experience.
There you go again - you've definitely morphed into Vlad. What the f*** are quotidian experiences. Why drop in terms that simply get people scrambling for google to work out what you are talking about, and then only to discover they seem to have no relevance.

Udayana

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #591 on: May 06, 2020, 10:45:06 AM »
Someone define "objective", "objectivity"

... then at least you will know if you are talking about the same thing!

Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #592 on: May 06, 2020, 10:46:33 AM »
There you go again - you've definitely morphed into Vlad. What the f*** are quotidian experiences. Why drop in terms that simply get people scrambling for google to work out what you are talking about, and then only to discover they seem to have no relevance.
It was simply a way to avoid the repetition of day to day. Quotidian means commonplace. Are you saying that I have to restrict my posts to words you know?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #593 on: May 06, 2020, 10:47:58 AM »
Objectivity is an absolute. Given we are subjective, we cannot achieve it.
You are confusing bias with error.

For scientific objectivity the method needs to eliminate bias (which is a manifestation of subjectivity if that bias is human) - it does not, and ultimately cannot eliminate error. The method will need to minimise and understand error, but if there error remains, but no bias then the method and the data meet the standards of objectivity.

A well designed double blinded clinical trial will be free from bias - it can be riddled with error which would mean it would be poor science, but provided there is no bias it remains objective - rubbish, but objective none the less.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #594 on: May 06, 2020, 10:50:25 AM »
It was simply a way to avoid the repetition of day to day. Quotidian means commonplace. Are you saying that I have to restrict my posts to words you know?
No - but it is a classic Vlad trope (which you often slip into too) effectively to throw obscure phrases and terms into the debate - but actually not to debate, which requires definition and argument to be placed around those terms.

Still waiting for you to define hard solipsism and to make an argument to its relevant in terms of scientific objectivity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #595 on: May 06, 2020, 10:51:06 AM »
Someone define "objective", "objectivity"

... then at least you will know if you are talking about the same thing!
I am happy to go with

'Objectivity is a philosophical concept of being true independently from individual subjectivity caused by perception, emotions, or imagination'

The issue is that we can't avoid the issue that our perceptions can be anything other than subjective. The reason for mentioning hard solipsism is that all external validation such as scientific tests are things we perceive as a subject.

Udayana

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #596 on: May 06, 2020, 10:53:11 AM »
You are confusing bias with error.

For scientific objectivity the method needs to eliminate bias (which is a manifestation of subjectivity if that bias is human) - it does not, and ultimately cannot eliminate error. The method will need to minimise and understand error, but if there error remains, but no bias then the method and the data meet the standards of objectivity.

A well designed double blinded clinical trial will be free from bias - it can be riddled with error which would mean it would be poor science, but provided there is no bias it remains objective - rubbish, but objective none the less.

Yes - you are talking about scientific objectivity, not NS's absolute objectivity - which remains a metaphysical ideal.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #597 on: May 06, 2020, 10:57:45 AM »
Yes - you are talking about scientific objectivity, not NS's absolute objectivity - which remains a metaphysical ideal.
Indeed I am as that is the relevant concept when talking about science, for obvious reasons. In science objectivity and subjectivity relate to human bias.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #598 on: May 06, 2020, 11:03:16 AM »
No - but it is a classic Vlad trope (which you often slip into too) effectively to throw obscure phrases and terms into the debate - but actually not to debate, which requires definition and argument to be placed around those terms.

Still waiting for you to define hard solipsism and to make an argument to its relevant in terms of scientific objectivity.

Why would I define the word 'quotidian"? It wasn't used in any specialised  or technical sense. I just used another word to avoid a repetition of a phrase used earlier in the post. I don't think it is a particularly obscure word.

I am using the term hard solipsism in the sense that we can only be sure of our individual existence, and that all our experiences of external confirmation cannot ever be known to be real. I am using the term hard because solipsism entails the actual belief that only the individual exists - which I do not hold to be true - but because we cannot rule out that possibility we cannot claim objectivity - defined in my reply to Udayana.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Sound evidence and reason for god (s) free
« Reply #599 on: May 06, 2020, 11:07:29 AM »
Indeed I am as that is the relevant concept when talking about science, for obvious reasons. In science objectivity and subjectivity relate to human bias.
Except it's not useful in a conversation about 'objective reality' which is when I first used the term.