What 'evidence' and 'reasons' exactly are atheists after.

[Stranger]

There is no way we can establish scientifically the origin of the universe. As Torridon has pointed out. Anything which satisfies science is invariably natural and cannot explain the existence of nature.

But if you invent something called "supernatural" to explain the existence of nature, you're then just left with the same problem with that - what explains the existence of the "supernatural"? The term "supernatural" doesn't have a useful definition in the context, and it's anyway a blind guess that's a step in the wrong direction, because it leaves you with even more things whose existence isn't explained.

But we can make a reasoned proposal of a) external creator based on everything observed having been created from something else
                                                            b) an infinite existence for the universe
                                                            c) A spontaneous appearance of nature

Option a) is begging the question. There might be something "external" to whatever you want to define as the universe, that somehow is the reason why it exists, but calling it a "creator" when we can deduce nothing about it, is unwarranted. Option b) can't be ruled out, and option c) is still stuck in 19th century physics. As I keep saying: the space-time might well just be. The shape and extent of it in the past direction is neither here nor there.

In fact the only one which doesn't defy what we see in nature is a). If you fail to see that then i'm afraid you have been seriously led up the garden path.

No - you're "thinking" is just outdated, simplistic, and biased towards the answer you would prefer...

[ippy]

Richard on High? I think it's more like your high on Richard.

Still no evidence then Vlad?

ippy.

P S                  'Richard Dawkins'

[ippy]

Have you tried switching it off, and switching it back on again?

There should be a transformer somewhere, it should have been placed somewhere that it can be accessed for servicing, obviously turn off the power to it from the mains and then check all of the connections right down to the lights I assume the 12 volts are supplying, if they're all good when you turn on the power fine if not get a new 12 volt transformer and do the appropriate connecting to your new transformer, like for like.

Safety first, turn off the power first before you do anything!

ippy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Option a) is begging the question. There might be something "external" to whatever you want to define as the universe, that somehow is the reason why it exists, but calling it a "creator" when we can deduce nothing about it, is unwarranted.

It is called the creator because it creates the universe. Had I been specifically talking about a personal creator I would have done so.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No - you're "thinking" is just outdated, simplistic, and biased towards the answer you would prefer...

No, because I am allowing for 3 possibilities. Your thinking is well fucked.

[Stranger]

It is called the creator because it creates the universe. Had I been specifically talking about a personal creator I would have done so.

The whole subject of this thread is about evidence for god(s) and if you just meant any general context that either led directly to or made possible the existence of the universe there are far less loaded terms.

No, because I am allowing for 3 possibilities. Your thinking is well fucked.

And I explained why those three are outdated, simplistic, and biased towards the answer you would prefer. Just asserting that my thinking is "fucked" isn't mush of a counterargument.

[Roses]

No, because I am allowing for 3 possibilities. Your thinking is well fucked.

You and thought is an oxymoron.

[Walter]

There should be a transformer somewhere, it should have been placed somewhere that it can be accessed for servicing, obviously turn off the power to it from the mains and then check all of the connections right down to the lights I assume the 12 volts are supplying, if they're all good when you turn on the power fine if not get a new 12 volt transformer and do the appropriate connecting to your new transformer, like for like.

Safety first, turn off the power first before you do anything!

ippy.

ippy

thanks so much for your reply

I've located the transformer and discovered it was rather hot to touch .I disconnected the mains from the main inlet and let it cool down .
I then reconnected the mains to find out how long it took to get hot again (not long) so i disconnected the transformer from the mains leaving the mains circuit live .

The 12v circuit should also charge the habitation battery but the MH control panel says no charge in battery yet water pump and lighting is still working

After  a good few hours of buggering about isolating various things and switching em on again one by one  I have reached the conclusion the TRANSFORMER  is at fault



anyway ive contacted a friendly sparks who's going to come and have a look at it in the morning

to be fair there copuld be three things all going wrong at the same time
1 faulty battery
2 faulty control panel
3 faulty transformer

or any combination of the above and without testing equipment I'm stuffed
so for now im running this laptop and my telly straight off the mains

thanks again old chap

[Walter]

You and thought is an oxymoron.

Lr

forget the 'oxy' part

[Walter]

WARNING!

I've just opened a nice bottle of London Dry so things might start to.......... improve on here 

[Nearly Sane]

WARNING!

I've just opened a nice bottle of London Dry so things might start to.......... improve on here 

Have fun. Raising a glass of rather nice verdelho to you

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The whole subject of this thread is about evidence for god(s) and if you just meant any general context that either led directly to or made possible the existence of the universe there are far less loaded terms.

And I explained why those three are outdated, simplistic, and biased towards the answer you would prefer. Just asserting that my thinking is "fucked" isn't mush of a counterargument.

Outdated? What do you mean?
Simplistic? How?
Biased? how?
There's nothing more bias than gaming and redefining the term nothing to get a wholly naturalistic answer to this.

[Walter]

Have fun. Raising a glass of rather nice verdelho to you

cheers old chap , have wonderful evening 

[Owlswing]

 Have fun. Raising a glass of rather nice verdelho to you

A horn of Lindisfarne here! If it does nothing else it will ensure that I sleep well tonight!

[Walter]

A horn of Lindisfarne here! If it does nothing else it will ensure that I sleep well tonight!

cheers , enjoy

[Nearly Sane]

A horn of Lindisfarne here! If it does nothing else it will ensure that I sleep well tonight!

Enjoy

[Stranger]

Outdated? What do you mean?
Simplistic? How?
Biased? how?

How many more times? It's outdated because you're obsessing about the start of time or an infinite past, which is Newtonian thinking. The best theory we have is general relativity that gives us the idea of a "block universe" - the space-time manifold just exists in its entirety. There is no reason to look for an explanation at some starting point in the past direction of time (if it exists) because that's just part of the manifold's shape. There are other hypotheses but the mere existence and logical consistency of that one shows up both the dated and simplistic nature of your three options.

The bias is blindingly obvious.

There's nothing more bias than gaming and redefining the term nothing to get a wholly naturalistic answer to this.

I've never tried to redefine nothing. There is a genuine mystery to existence but inventing more things that might exist simply doesn't help. If anything is redefining nothing it's the option that the universe "popped"out of it, which would mean it would have had to exist at some time and time isn't nothing.

[Nearly Sane]

Outdated? What do you mean?
Simplistic? How?
Biased? how?
There's nothing more bias than gaming and redefining the term nothing to get a wholly naturalistic answer to this.

Can you define absolute nothing in any coherent fashion?

[jeremyp]

However this thread is about what evidence might sway you

I'm pretty sure I've already mentioned it multiple times. The kind of evidence that would sway me is good evidence. Other than that, You can present whatever evidence you like and then I'll tell you if it's good or not and why.

and therefore I'm not obliged to cite evidence here?

Why are you asking us that?

[Nearly Sane]

I'm pretty sure I've already mentioned it multiple times. The kind of evidence that would sway me is good evidence. Other than that, You can present whatever evidence you like and then I'll tell you if it's good or not and why.

Why are you asking us that?

What is good evidence for a supernatural  claim? Or indeed  any evidence? Now I accept that  is up to those making those claims to justify but you talk about 'good evidence' and that seems to me as of you are talking  in methodologically naturalistic terms of what evidence means.

[ippy]

ippy

thanks so much for your reply

I've located the transformer and discovered it was rather hot to touch .I disconnected the mains from the main inlet and let it cool down .
I then reconnected the mains to find out how long it took to get hot again (not long) so i disconnected the transformer from the mains leaving the mains circuit live .

The 12v circuit should also charge the habitation battery but the MH control panel says no charge in battery yet water pump and lighting is still working

After  a good few hours of buggering about isolating various things and switching em on again one by one  I have reached the conclusion the TRANSFORMER  is at fault



anyway ive contacted a friendly sparks who's going to come and have a look at it in the morning

to be fair there copuld be three things all going wrong at the same time
1 faulty battery
2 faulty control panel
3 faulty transformer

or any combination of the above and without testing equipment I'm stuffed
so for now im running this laptop and my telly straight off the mains

thanks again old chap

All transformers get hot when they're working but you have a sparks going to look at it, best thing if you're not sure or don't feel entirely confident about doing the job.

Switch the transformer off in the meantime until Mr Sparks has had a look.

I always had a job I enjoyed before I retired sparks was only one of many trades I became qualified in, I started work as an apprentice engraver of the copper plates that were used to print visiting cards, the very same process that has now developed into making electronic chips knocked any need for engravers on the head before I had finished my apprenticeship.

Any time if I can help and regards to you Walter, ippy.

[Robbie]

Something just for you ippy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYOQ5XMsbIk&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2BrHOrjJX9ZZNMCZlVD2LZrsY6uJipZBp2IwGoVk9PaXAZfKmlnRiySwk

[Walter]

All transformers get hot when they're working but you have a sparks going to look at it, best thing if you're not sure or don't feel entirely confident about doing the job.

Switch the transformer off in the meantime until Mr Sparks has had a look.

I always had a job I enjoyed before I retired sparks was only one of many trades I became qualified in, I started work as an apprentice engraver of the copper plates that were used to print visiting cards, the very same process that has now developed into making electronic chips knocked any need for engravers on the head before I had finished my apprenticeship.

Any time if I can help and regards to you Walter, ippy.

much appreciated ippy

the sparks has been and his advice was to only run the power through the transformer when it is required ie, when i need water and lighting
he said it will get warm when operating normally but mine was too hot and needs replacing AND the low voltage circuit needs checking by an auto electrician
He pointed me in the direction of one he knows , however I cant do that until this is all over

I think i can manage until then

thanks again for your help ippy 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What is good evidence for a supernatural  claim? Or indeed  any evidence? Now I accept that  is up to those making those claims to justify but you talk about 'good evidence' and that seems to me as of you are talking  in methodologically naturalistic terms of what evidence means.

And the great irony is if he is talking in methodologically naturalistic terms of what evidence is, where is the methodologically naturalistic evidence for the philosophical naturalism he proceeds from?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But if you invent something called "supernatural" to explain the existence of nature, you're then just left with the same problem with that - what explains the existence of the "supernatural"? The term "supernatural" doesn't have a useful definition in the context, and it's anyway a blind guess that's a step in the wrong direction, because it leaves you with even more things whose existence isn't explained.

Option a) is begging the question. There might be something "external" to whatever you want to define as the universe, that somehow is the reason why it exists, but calling it a "creator" when we can deduce nothing about it, is unwarranted. Option b) can't be ruled out, and option c) is still stuck in 19th century physics. As I keep saying: the space-time might well just be. The shape and extent of it in the past direction is neither here nor there.

No - you're "thinking" is just outdated, simplistic, and biased towards the answer you would prefer...

Absolute rot. If you want to posit that the universe or some manifold in which it exists just is as brute fact, that is the intellectual equivalent of taking the ball and hiding it. What for instance is ''it's'' explanation ?