Author Topic: Pagan Christianity  (Read 2832 times)

flower girl

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Pagan Christianity
« on: May 12, 2020, 07:19:45 PM »
Been reading this book by Frank Viola and George Barna.  Seems there's nothing biblical about the development of the modern Christian Church and the services held within. (Well, the priesthood was a throwback to the Jewish Temple priests, but there's no mystery in how Jesus would have felt about bringing that one back.)
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Robbie

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2020, 11:21:52 PM »
Here's link to the book:-  https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1479319.Pagan_Christianity_

& review:  https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/book-review-pagan-christianity/

I hadn't heard of it but might find interesting.

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Owlswing

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2020, 09:49:30 AM »

Pagan Christianity?

Hmm!

I really cannot see how such a thing could exist, but unfortunately at the present I cannot see me being able to afford the book to see exactly what it, "Pagan Chrtianity" is supposed to be. An oxymoron, definitely, probably.
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flower girl

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2020, 07:46:31 PM »
Thank you Robbie.  :)

Pagan Christianity?

Hmm!

I really cannot see how such a thing could exist, but unfortunately at the present I cannot see me being able to afford the book to see exactly what it, "Pagan Chrtianity" is supposed to be. An oxymoron, definitely, probably.

In this book, the word "pagan" applies to mainly the greco-roman gods.  The authors reveal that just about everything that defines "Church" today, the buildings, the rituals, ceremonies, rites, etc... were all adopted from similar buildings, rituals, ceremonies, rites that Romans were very familiar with.  The stark truth is none of these things can be found in the New Testament.  The New Testament Christians purposely lived out their faith in a deliberately decentralized way. 
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Owlswing

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2020, 07:57:54 PM »

Thank you Robbie.  :)

In this book, the word "pagan" applies to mainly the greco-roman gods.  The authors reveal that just about everything that defines "Church" today, the buildings, the rituals, ceremonies, rites, etc... were all adopted from similar buildings, rituals, ceremonies, rites that Romans were very familiar with.  The stark truth is none of these things can be found in the New Testament.  The New Testament Christians purposely lived out their faith in a deliberately decentralized way.


I am afraid that I use the term Pagan in defining, basically, anyone who believes on ANY or ALL Gods who were worshipped prior to the supposed birth of Chist or, alternatively, the appearance of the great fictional work known as the Bible.

 
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

flower girl

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2020, 08:51:26 PM »
I am afraid that I use the term Pagan in defining, basically, anyone who believes on ANY or ALL Gods who were worshipped prior to the supposed birth of Chist or, alternatively, the appearance of the great fictional work known as the Bible.

I think most do now.  The book goes into how Constantine, despite his vision and subsequent conversion, still believed in the Roman gods, in particular Mithras, who was the god he had most in mind when he commissioned the first Christian temple to be built.  Of course, all of this culminated into what finally becomes the Basilica in Rome.
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Robbie

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2020, 08:53:58 PM »
A pagan is a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.
Wiki says:- Paganism (from classical Latin pāgānus "rural, rustic," later "civilian") is a term first used in the fourth century by early Christians for people in the Roman Empire who practiced polytheism.

I'm going to buy the book in a while, I have a few sitting next to me atm so am in no rush for this on but it's on my wish list. From the review I think I'll find it interesting. It is quite expensive owlswing but the kindle edition is cheaper if you or anyone like using a kindle (I prefer books). Maybe can find it second hand if you're keen on reading it.

I'm intrigued & like this from the review:-

Pagan Christianity takes the readers through the history of many of our church practices. The authors argue the following:

The church should not contain any hierarchy at all.
The senior pastor is actually an obstacle to the fully-functioning body of Christ.
The idea of a sermon in a church gathering is pagan (after all, that brings about a clergy/laity distinction).
Church buildings take away from the biblical teaching that the Church is a people.
Any routine in worship is wrong. All liturgy, whether Protestant, Catholic or free church is misguided and stifling to the Holy Spirit.
Dressing up for church is a leftover from paganism and hypocritical for Christians.
No one should lead in singing. To have a worship leader picking songs is an affront to freedom in Christ.
Tithing is completely unbiblical and now serves to prop up the unbiblical institutionalized church and the salaries of unbiblical clergy.
Baptism and the Lord’s Supper have been coopted by pagan mysticism.
Christian education doesn’t work because everything is mind-focused. Discipleship should be an apprentice-ship, not just filling the head with information.
The Bible needs to be read in context, not as a jigsaw puzzle.
We need to be like Jesus – revolutionaries who are ready to turn aside all tradition.

Thanks for the recommendation flwoer girl.
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flower girl

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2020, 09:08:00 PM »
I look forward to your reaction to the book, Robbie.  (I'm about half-way through it.)
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ad_orientem

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2020, 11:57:49 PM »
I think most do now.  The book goes into how Constantine, despite his vision and subsequent conversion, still believed in the Roman gods, in particular Mithras, who was the god he had most in mind when he commissioned the first Christian temple to be built.  Of course, all of this culminated into what finally becomes the Basilica in Rome.

Good God! I thought all that Mithras stuff had been rubbished yonks ago. Yet people still go on about it. Anyway, the God of the New Testament is not only the God of the Jews but of all people. Pagans essentially worshipped nature because they couldn't see any further from it, but creation is an icon of the Creator. So what if in Rome God is worshipped in a former pagan temple? As the Apostle says, they (pagans) knew not what they were worshipping.
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Owlswing

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2020, 11:58:38 PM »

A pagan is a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.

Wiki says:- Paganism (from classical Latin pāgānus "rural, rustic," later "civilian") is a term first used in the fourth century by early Christians for people in the Roman Empire who practiced polytheism.


I can't say that I totally agree with the Wiki derfinition; mine is closer to yours - Anyone who does not follow one of the seven major religions, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Sikh. Buddhism, Judaism.

Quote

It is quite expensive Owlswing but the kindle edition is cheaper if you or anyone like using a kindle (I prefer books). Maybe can find it second hand if you're keen on reading it.


I am still frantically trying to finish the pile of books that I received from my son and daughters for Christmas and have one-and-a-half still to finish from my birthday last June! Thanks for the offer but by the time I get around to it I might try the local charity shops!

Quote

I'm intrigued & like this from the review:-

Pagan Christianity takes the readers through the history of many of our church practices. The authors argue the following:

The idea of a sermon in a church gathering is pagan (after all, that brings about a clergy/laity distinction).


I am not totally sure, but it is very probable, that any High Priest or High Priestess who tried to give a sermon would probably not be in those offices at the next ritual.

Quote

Dressing up for church is a leftover from paganism and hypocritical for Christians.


This one brought a grin to my face. On one occasion a few years ago I was late for ritual and, as I was carrying the mead for the end of ritual, I had got changed on the train and was stepping it out with my head down when I was bellowed to a stop by a very irate Catholic priest who wanted to know on whose authority I was on his turf (I can't remember his exact word) and I opened my cloak to display my black robes, the pentacle on a chain around my neck, the Coven sword, a four and a half foot long katana on a rope belt. and a six inch long witch's athame in its sheath at the front of my belt. He quite obviously realised what I was and departed as fast as his legs would carry him!

Quote

Baptism and the Lord’s Supper have been coopted by pagan mysticism.


Not in any branch of Paganism with which I am familiar!

Blessed be!
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Owlswing

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2020, 12:10:46 AM »


As the Apostle says, they (pagans) knew not what they were worshipping.


I am pleased that you used the past and not the present tense for this!

Blessed be!
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Robbie

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2020, 03:51:30 AM »
Owl:- I might try the local charity shops!
....
Very good idea - when they're open again! When........
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jeremyp

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2020, 09:21:49 AM »
I think most do now.  The book goes into how Constantine, despite his vision and subsequent conversion, still believed in the Roman gods, in particular Mithras, who was the god he had most in mind when he commissioned the first Christian temple to be built.  Of course, all of this culminated into what finally becomes the Basilica in Rome.

I think that Christianity is a synthesis of Jewish religious ideas with some Greek religious ideas. For example, the "logos" in John is apparently quite Greek. The Jesus mythicists put up quite a good argument for the Judaeo-Greek syncretism even though I am sceptical of the claim that Jesus was not a character based on the founder of Christianity.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2020, 10:30:51 AM »
I think that Christianity is a synthesis of Jewish religious ideas with some Greek religious ideas. For example, the "logos" in John is apparently quite Greek. The Jesus mythicists put up quite a good argument for the Judaeo-Greek syncretism even though I am sceptical of the claim that Jesus was not a character based on the founder of Christianity.
That may indeed be true, but there is a clear melding of christianity with paganism, certainly in the way christianity has developed in northern Europe.

The most obvious examples are the two biggest Christian festivals, Christmas and Easter, which are so clearly a combination of Christian elements merged with earlier pagan elements, associated with the seasons and equinox. So much of the traditions of those two festivals nods to earlier and enduring pagan traditions. And of course, in English, we even forgot to change the name of the christian festival of death and resurrection - its etymology remains linked to a pagan goddess of the spring!

Roses

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2020, 10:39:35 AM »
Good God! I thought all that Mithras stuff had been rubbished yonks ago. Yet people still go on about it. Anyway, the God of the New Testament is not only the God of the Jews but of all people. Pagans essentially worshipped nature because they couldn't see any further from it, but creation is an icon of the Creator. So what if in Rome God is worshipped in a former pagan temple? As the Apostle says, they (pagans) knew not what they were worshipping.

There are many different gods worshipped by humans, the Biblical god being only one of them, with no more credence than the rest.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2020, 10:43:49 AM »
Anyway, the God of the New Testament is not only the God of the Jews but of all people.
Other opinions are available.

And until you actually provide evidence that this god actually exists it is a completely moot point as to whether this mythical god is the god of christians, jews, everyone etc etc.

Owlswing

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2020, 01:10:03 PM »

Good God! I thought all that Mithras stuff had been rubbished yonks ago. Yet people still go on about it. Anyway, the God of the New Testament is not only the God of the Jews but of all people. Pagans essentially worshipped nature because they couldn't see any further from it, but creation is an icon of the Creator. So what if in Rome God is worshipped in a former pagan temple? As the Apostle says, they (pagans) knew not what they were worshipping.


In a word the highlighted statement is BOLLOCKS! We know full well what we worship and it was around 25,000 years before your Johnny-come-lately and his son!

The oldest 'religious' artifact known is a sculpture of a pregnant woman, a fertiliy figure, carbon dated to 25.000 BC, the Venus of Willendorf  She signifies fertility and nature and it is the natural that we worship and the deities connected with it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 01:16:47 PM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

flower girl

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2020, 07:53:54 PM »

The oldest 'religious' artifact known is a sculpture of a pregnant woman, a fertiliy figure, carbon dated to 25.000 BC, the Venus of Willendorf  She signifies fertility and nature and it is the natural that we worship and the deities connected with it.

A lot of the prophets in the Old Testament warned Israel and Judah, who were supposed to be the People who relied solely on God, about adopting pagan rituals in their desire to enhance the fertility of both mammals (including them) and crops. We now know that the ancient Middle and Near East cultures were rife with ceremonies and rituals meant to appease a variety of fertility gods.  The notion that there is only one God who promises to take care of all needs if, IF, you trust him was quite foreign and even viewed a life-threateningly risky in those days.  And, Israel clearly struggled with that very dilemma all the time.

In a way, I see the same struggle present in how Christianity transformed from a bohemian people who saw themselves as the temple of God into the more majestic and awe-inspiring physical form that Constantine and later the Catholic Church recreated from the culture of Roman gods, which emphasized a building as the place to worship God (which did end up being more of a collection of different gods adding in the Madonna and the Saints.)  Even though I can understand how the change resulted in some gorgeous architecture and lovely traditions, I actually feel a yearning for the earlier, peasant Christianity.  I would have liked to have experienced that (sans the lions and all.)
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Owlswing

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2020, 10:33:51 PM »

That may indeed be true, but there is a clear melding of christianity with paganism, certainly in the way christianity has developed in northern Europe.

The most obvious examples are the two biggest Christian festivals, Christmas and Easter, which are so clearly a combination of Christian elements merged with earlier pagan elements, associated with the seasons and equinox. So much of the traditions of those two festivals nods to earlier and enduring pagan traditions. And of course, in English, we even forgot to change the name of the christian festival of death and resurrection - its etymology remains linked to a pagan goddess of the spring!


I think you are wrong!

The Christians moved their celebrations to the Pagan Festival dates - the Winter Solstice became Christmas - just as they built theit churches at places where the pagans had always held their rituals.

It made it easier to hold their brainwashing sessions where the pagans were used to gathering!
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Sassy

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2020, 02:15:46 PM »
Been reading this book by Frank Viola and George Barna.  Seems there's nothing biblical about the development of the modern Christian Church and the services held within. (Well, the priesthood was a throwback to the Jewish Temple priests, but there's no mystery in how Jesus would have felt about bringing that one back.)

Depends how you look at the 'word' Church and the use of the word 'priest'.

The first Christian Church was how Christ said it would be.

20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth
.


The Church was the final covenant promised in the OT and concerned the Messiah,

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
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The Church is the people not a building and it is lead by the Spirit of God.  So they  are looking in the wrong place at the wrong thing.  Spirit and truth are those people who are the real Church of God and it fulfills what is written in the OT about the Messiah and the final covenant. It was never meant to match anything but the Word given by the Spirit and the truth revealed  Gods way.
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Sassy

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2020, 12:39:45 PM »
Thank you Robbie.  :)

In this book, the word "pagan" applies to mainly the greco-roman gods.  The authors reveal that just about everything that defines "Church" today, the buildings, the rituals, ceremonies, rites, etc... were all adopted from similar buildings, rituals, ceremonies, rites that Romans were very familiar with.  The stark truth is none of these things can be found in the New Testament.  The New Testament Christians purposely lived out their faith in a deliberately decentralized way.

The trinity, the communion and the life in Spirit and Truth are not found anywhere with Roman rites.

The black madonna which was a pagan god which can be found before Christianity was what they tried to regain their power with through the use of adopting the faith of the Christian Church.
But in doing this the Roman Catholic Church shows it has no power and never has had any in the truth of the 'Christian Church'.  If we were being honest then we would call the true Christian Church of Christ the Jewish Church. Because it is based on the telling of the Messiah in the OT/TORAH and Prophets teachings.  The final covenant as told in Jeremiah 31:31-34.  It is the Roman Catholic Church (do not confuse the English Catholic church) which has stopped the Jews seeing Christ as the Messiah. There is no pope or head of the Church only Christ. Above him is God.  You can learn these things without reading books from people who do not understand what the Church of Christ really is.
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Roses

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2020, 01:51:07 PM »
The trinity, the communion and the life in Spirit and Truth are not found anywhere with Roman rites.

The black madonna which was a pagan god which can be found before Christianity was what they tried to regain their power with through the use of adopting the faith of the Christian Church.
But in doing this the Roman Catholic Church shows it has no power and never has had any in the truth of the 'Christian Church'.  If we were being honest then we would call the true Christian Church of Christ the Jewish Church. Because it is based on the telling of the Messiah in the OT/TORAH and Prophets teachings.  The final covenant as told in Jeremiah 31:31-34.  It is the Roman Catholic Church (do not confuse the English Catholic church) which has stopped the Jews seeing Christ as the Messiah. There is no pope or head of the Church only Christ. Above him is God.  You can learn these things without reading books from people who do not understand what the Church of Christ really is.

And of course your take on it is the right one! ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 02:44:25 PM by Littleroses »
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Anchorman

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2020, 02:28:16 PM »
The trinity, the communion and the life in Spirit and Truth are not found anywhere with Roman rites. The black madonna which was a pagan god which can be found before Christianity was what they tried to regain their power with through the use of adopting the faith of the Christian Church. But in doing this the Roman Catholic Church shows it has no power and never has had any in the truth of the 'Christian Church'.  If we were being honest then we would call the true Christian Church of Christ the Jewish Church. Because it is based on the telling of the Messiah in the OT/TORAH and Prophets teachings.  The final covenant as told in Jeremiah 31:31-34.  It is the Roman Catholic Church (do not confuse the English Catholic church) which has stopped the Jews seeing Christ as the Messiah. There is no pope or head of the Church only Christ. Above him is God.  You can learn these things without reading books from people who do not understand what the Church of Christ really is.
You speak of the Roman Catholics as not belonging to Christ. Since I work, pray, and, praise God, worship with them frequently, you are in error. I'm privilaged to be a member of the Iona Community; we practice a form of daily devotion - the caim - which has roots in other faiths...and none the worse for that, since I've found it an excellent devotional exercise. In the I.C, we leave labels aside, alongside ranks or titles; we may worship with a Baptist, pray with an Orthodox, peel the spuds with an RC...and live with each other as Children of God, for whom Christ died, and work for Him where He deems fit to put us.
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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2020, 09:33:49 AM »
And of course your take on it is the right one! ;D ;D ;D
   




The earliest proto-Trinitarian 'document' we have isn't a fragment of papyrus; it's a graffito scrawled in the entrance to a tomb in Memphis, Egypt, dating to around 120 AD.
It depicts a figure dressed as a seated Egyptian king, and the inscription, in Demotic writing, reads "Christ, God and Father".
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Roses

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Re: Pagan Christianity
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2020, 10:35:47 AM »
   




The earliest proto-Trinitarian 'document' we have isn't a fragment of papyrus; it's a graffito scrawled in the entrance to a tomb in Memphis, Egypt, dating to around 120 AD.
It depicts a figure dressed as a seated Egyptian king, and the inscription, in Demotic writing, reads "Christ, God and Father".

But that doesn't give it any credence as to the existence of a god and its by blow.
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