Author Topic: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.  (Read 12050 times)

ippy

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #100 on: May 16, 2020, 01:35:16 PM »
Well hopefully you'll get round to it one day.

Arr the well known Vladonion misquote, If I had written:

'You must know I didn't specify anything in particular?' 

You might have had a point, but the thing is Vlad I wrote:

'I didn't specify anything in particular only viable evidence?'

Wouldn't misrepresentation be a sin in your silly and narrow religious believing world?

Yet another load of Vladollocks!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #101 on: May 16, 2020, 04:05:38 PM »
How do you explain then how Hindus have a completely different religion to you. If it's the same god making contact with you and them, Wouldn't your perceptions of what God is like be similar? Wouldn't your religions be similar?
If Hinduism is completely different from anything it is atheism. In my opinion, in that respect, represents God/the divine one up on atheism. The trouble with your post is your use of hyperbole.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #102 on: May 16, 2020, 05:00:55 PM »
I'm not in a hole. The take out message from the OT theology is that God was having meaningful contact with people before Jesus arrives in history. This includes Monotheists of differing stripes, Henotheists who believed Yahweh was one of many Gods and Egyptians who had a pantheon.

So this blows your thesis somewhat.
Yes you are and getting deeper by the minute.

We are talking about all the people that the judo-christian god didn't have meaningful contact with not those he did. And by you own admission in the OT the number of people with no meaningful contact with the judo-christian god is vast - all those in any part of the world except for a tiny area around the eastern Mediterranean. So that includes people living in sub-Saharan Africa, all peoples in the Americas, Australasia plus northern and western Europe plus virtually all of Asia.

And of course the OT suggests that the judo-christian god only started getting chatty with anyone in about 4000 BC - by working through the generations. But people have been around 5-7 million years. So that's an awful lot of time, an awful lot of places and an awful lot of people that the judo-christian god didn't have meaningful contact with.

Enki

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #103 on: May 16, 2020, 05:30:20 PM »
Agreed, and that would include the Pirahã tribe of course, who don't seem to have had any god at all. perhaps He forgot these because He just wasn't clued up enough on the world that He had created.
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jeremyp

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #104 on: May 16, 2020, 05:32:19 PM »
If Hinduism is completely different from anything it is atheism. In my opinion, in that respect, represents God/the divine one up on atheism. The trouble with your post is your use of hyperbole.
Evasion noted.
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jeremyp

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #105 on: May 16, 2020, 05:34:24 PM »
If Hinduism is completely different from anything it is atheism. In my opinion, in that respect, represents God/the divine one up on atheism. The trouble with your post is your use of hyperbole.
So is it Christianity that got the number of gods wrong or Hinduism?

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #106 on: May 16, 2020, 05:57:12 PM »
Yes you are.Why did some people have a pantheon and some only have one god? If God is real (or gods are real) shouldn't the various religions at least agree on how many there are?

Also, how come the Jews didn't notice that God has a head shaped like that of an elephant (or conversely, why did Hindus falsely believe that one of their gods had a head shaped like that of an elephant)?

With all the billions of people who ever lived, only one small geographically focused group of people came up with the concept of Christianity without hearing it from other people who were already Christians.
Religions with Pantheons are fairly anthropomorphising to the point where the Gods never seem to reach any great philosophical stature, in my opinion. Certainly the behaviour in the members of the larger pantheon religions namely the Greco roman, early hindu, and northern European pantheons get up to very many human shenanigans, war, lust, gluttony, feasting, sin and political maneuvering etc.

The trouble is that many who held different religions exodused from this board although
Sriram might be your man to ask.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #107 on: May 16, 2020, 06:07:50 PM »
Yes you are and getting deeper by the minute.

We are talking about all the people that the judo-christian god didn't have meaningful contact with not those he did. And by you own admission in the OT the number of people with no meaningful contact with the judo-christian god is vast - all those in any part of the world except for a tiny area around the eastern Mediterranean. So that includes people living in sub-Saharan Africa, all peoples in the Americas, Australasia plus northern and western Europe plus virtually all of Asia.

And of course the OT suggests that the judo-christian god only started getting chatty with anyone in about 4000 BC - by working through the generations. But people have been around 5-7 million years. So that's an awful lot of time, an awful lot of places and an awful lot of people that the judo-christian god didn't have meaningful contact with.
I'm not in a hole at all. Your argument hinges on your definition of meaningful and religion and gods all of which are the take of a secular person from a secular perspective.

I haven't admitted to God not having meaningful contact with non-judeo Christians at all. But then you do seem to be seeing everything through modern secularly tinted specs.

An example being the appearance of God just a few thousand years ago.
That is not my take on God and yours is obviously based well and truly in atheism.

I think you are wrong, as I said, to take a view religions solely in terms of being an emergent function of societies since societies have come and gone but religions remain after them.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 06:18:54 PM by The Chasm of Equivocation »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #108 on: May 16, 2020, 06:09:36 PM »
So is it Christianity that got the number of gods wrong or Hinduism?
Again why don't you ask Sriram about Hinduism.

jeremyp

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #109 on: May 16, 2020, 06:21:26 PM »
Again why don't you ask Sriram about Hinduism.
It’s a public forum. He’s free to answer the question too.

If your god is real, why is it that of all the people in India, none of them believed in him until Christians arrived and started proselytising Christianity?

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #110 on: May 16, 2020, 06:28:19 PM »
It’s a public forum. He’s free to answer the question too.

If your god is real, why is it that of all the people in India, none of them believed in him until Christians arrived and started proselytising Christianity?
Don't you think it a bit odd demanding answers of a Christian regarding the Hindu experience while avoiding asking someone who is presumably of that persuasion and certainly has more experience in that direction than I do? I certainly think it's odd.

Do you think Indians were proselytised ( I feel you tried to make that sound like bad thing) or did some possibly convert through their own volition?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #111 on: May 17, 2020, 10:54:11 AM »
I'm not in a hole at all.
Yes you are - a massive one.

Your argument hinges on your definition of meaningful ...
Gaining knowledge of the judeo-christian god and christianity (i.e. Jesus) directly through divine intervention without the need for this knowledge to be passed on to the individual from another person.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #112 on: May 17, 2020, 11:27:12 AM »
An example being the appearance of God just a few thousand years ago.
On the assumption that this is true, very few people found out about this directly - i.e. direct interaction with Jesus - virtually everyone found out through interactions with other humans.

Let's look at the resurrection - christians think this to be perhaps the most remarkable thing ever to have happened. Why didn't god tell people all around the world when it happened, including people in the americas, australia etc, etc. He could have sent angels - he seemed to be comfortable to do this when Jesus was born - e.g. to Shepherds - sending them a very clear message about something remarkable that had just happened. So why not communicate in the same way to tell people across the world directly about the resurrection?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #113 on: May 17, 2020, 11:35:01 AM »
Yes you are - a massive one.
Gaining knowledge of the judeo-christian god and christianity (i.e. Jesus) directly through divine intervention without the need for this knowledge to be passed on to the individual from another person.
Gaining spiritual knowledge of God is through experience of God. I think you are confusing intellectual knowledge with spiritual knowledge. People spiritually accept God because of their spiritual experience. When they here the Gospel they are often ready to make their spiritual decision. Intellectual knowledge or even assent is no substitute to this.

I don't see how you can say people haven't encountered God prior to encountering the Gospel from a secular, sociological perspective that discounts the spiritual aspect of religion and God speaking meaningfully to monotheists of differing stripes, henotheists, and people with pantheons in the OT and the NT.

And that's before the fact that none of this is really atheist argument. How, for instance do you think your argument that god has not spoken meaningfully to uncontacted people is different from your argument that God has not spoken meaningfully to anyone?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 11:37:28 AM by The Chasm of Equivocation »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #114 on: May 17, 2020, 11:53:15 AM »
Gaining spiritual knowledge of God is through experience of God. I think you are confusing intellectual knowledge with spiritual knowledge. People spiritually accept God because of their spiritual experience. When they here the Gospel they are often ready to make their spiritual decision. Intellectual knowledge or even assent is no substitute to this.
That is actually the whole point - the spiritual knowledge, as you call it is effectively what I am describing as direct meaningful contact. How many people have come to 'know' the judeo-christian god or Jesus without first gaining knowledge of the purported existence of the judeo-christian god or Jesus via other people. The answer is zero.

So why exactly is god failing to engage people in spiritual knowledge (using your term) unless they've already gained intellectual knowledge of the purported existence of the judeo-christian god or Jesus through transmission of that knowledge via people. Surely god could simply skip that incredible slow and unreliable human-requiring step and engage with people all around the whole who have no 'intellectual' knowledge directly - yet he never does.

Weird eh - leads back to my 5 possible explanations as to why he is so shy at interacting except with people who already have found out about christianity from people. Now those five explanations are based on an assumption that the judeo-christian god actually exists. But we can broaden this, not to make that assumption - this leads to a sixth and by far the most plausible explanation - the judeo-christian god does not actually exist except as a creation of people.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 11:57:48 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #115 on: May 17, 2020, 01:06:00 PM »
On the assumption that this is true, very few people found out about this directly - i.e. direct interaction with Jesus - virtually everyone found out through interactions with other humans.
That only a few had direct interaction is down to God incarnating as a person. Yes a lot of people have the full history due to interactions with other humans. But to argue that Christianity arises through that is incorrect. For instance you have probably received the Gospel and the intellectual and historical details and yet Christianity does not seem to have appeared in you. The point being that there must be more going on that you seem to be discounting.
Quote
Let's look at the resurrection - christians think this to be perhaps the most remarkable thing ever to have happened. Why didn't god tell people all around the world when it happened, including people in the americas, australia etc, etc. He could have sent angels - he seemed to be comfortable to do this when Jesus was born - e.g. to Shepherds - sending them a very clear message about something remarkable that had just happened. So why not communicate in the same way to tell people across the world directly about the resurrection?
People believe in the resurrection rather than merely know of it because they encounter Christ. Again because of god's action in incarnating as a person only a few are going to experience the physical resurrection, empirically and historically at first hand.

How is being told by angels not second hand. If you are going to say god should have told people by angelic messenger just after the resurrection you may as well go onto the question of why there aren't angels telling people all the time.....To this we can say how do we know people aren't contacted this way?, who'd believe it?, would we get preoccupied with angels rather than Christ.

Again how does this theological point of view(what God should have done) sit with your atheist point of view that God has told no one anything?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #116 on: May 17, 2020, 01:12:40 PM »
That is actually the whole point - the spiritual knowledge, as you call it is effectively what I am describing as direct meaningful contact. How many people have come to 'know' the judeo-christian god or Jesus without first gaining knowledge of the purported existence of the judeo-christian god or Jesus via other people. The answer is zero.

So why exactly is god failing to engage people in spiritual knowledge (using your term) unless they've already gained intellectual knowledge of the purported existence of the judeo-christian god or Jesus through transmission of that knowledge via people. Surely god could simply skip that incredible slow and unreliable human-requiring step and engage with people all around the whole who have no 'intellectual' knowledge directly - yet he never does.

Weird eh - leads back to my 5 possible explanations as to why he is so shy at interacting except with people who already have found out about christianity from people. Now those five explanations are based on an assumption that the judeo-christian god actually exists. But we can broaden this, not to make that assumption - this leads to a sixth and by far the most plausible explanation - the judeo-christian god does not actually exist except as a creation of people.
I disagree that god is failing to communicate meaningful spiritual knowledge to non Christians and that that is erroneously derived from a secular and sociological view which discounts accounts of God's interactions with non Christians in the Old and New Testaments and fails to explain it's own self defeating content and concern on the matter of salvation. Namely that uncontacted tribes are immediately condemned for not accepting the message where the flipside of that is if they are not able to accept fully by the same token, they are not able to reject fully.

Owlswing

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #117 on: May 17, 2020, 02:36:11 PM »

Too much obvious local mythos to be a helpful, useful comprehensive picture of the greatness of the divine.


Why don't you believe in them?

So why don't you believe in Thor or Vishnu? I do!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #118 on: May 17, 2020, 03:37:15 PM »
So why don't you believe in Thor or Vishnu? I do!
In the light of platonic philosophy they represent too much obvious local mythos to offer a helpful, useful comprehensive picture of the greatness of the divine.

Have you encountered Thor and Vishnu?

Roses

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #119 on: May 17, 2020, 03:58:01 PM »
In the light of platonic philosophy they represent too much obvious local mythos to offer a helpful, useful comprehensive picture of the greatness of the divine.

Have you encountered Thor and Vishnu?

The Biblical god is no more credible than Thor and Vishnu.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #120 on: May 17, 2020, 04:39:29 PM »
The Biblical god is no more credible than Thor and Vishnu.
I disagree.
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Roses

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #121 on: May 17, 2020, 04:43:18 PM »
I disagree.
If there was a Nobel prize in asserting without giving reasons or justifications you would have won it.

You have never provided any reasons or justifications, which make any sense.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2020, 04:57:05 PM »
You have never provided any reasons or justifications, which make any sense.
But at least I provide rather than withhold like you which frankly is rude and indicative of being up one's own arse.

Roses

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2020, 05:13:12 PM »
But at least I provide rather than withhold like you which frankly is rude and indicative of being up one's own arse.

It is those who state something, which is much less than credible to be factual, to provide verifiable evidence to justify their claim, something you have never done to support the existence of the Biblical god.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: The 'I believe in one less god than you' schtick.
« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2020, 06:03:27 PM »
It is those who state something, which is much less than credible to be factual, to provide verifiable evidence to justify their claim, something you have never done to support the existence of the Biblical god.

If you think I'm going to respond to you think again.